England 2023/24

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Out of curiosity, what makes Farrell one of our best ever?

His performances on the pitch in an England shirt are often average. He's very poor at talking to refs, he also seems to really suffer when the pressure kicks in. His kicking isn't anything special compared to other 10s around and neither are the other parts of his game.

Apart from playing a lot of games and being mouthy, what's he so great at?

 

[NickBD]

I mean being all England's all time points scorer as well as all time world cup points scorer and only second to Carter in all time points puts you up there surely? He is arguably one of England's best not saying THE best but easily top selection of players. I will never get the hate he gets from England fans, to sum his career up saying he's just a mouthy guy who played a lot with most of his performances are average is just wrong. Im not saying he doesn't deserve criticism he rightly does and the last few years he's been lucky to get more caps then he deserves but the disrespect he gets is unfair.

 

[BrokenWing]

Top points scorer I suppose.

Any criticism of his poor form should be directed at whoever picked him, not the man himself.

 

[Saintjay]

The amount of current players, ex-pro's and coaches that rave about him is hight, yet it's the opposite with the majority of fans.

Are they not seeing what the rest of us do? I'm not buying we're all cluess rugby muppets. Perhaps they are just being nice and protecting there own careers. Just the disparity in opinion between fans / those 'in' the game seems high.

Then again i always thought AWJ was a pretty meh Captain so what do i know.

 

[ncurd]

I think his points per game tells a better story than most points. Especially needing nearly 20% more caps to eclipse Wilkinson. On drop goals Ford managed to get 75% of his total (at the time) in one game!

I'd also like to Ford's PPG where he's been the designated kicker.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I mean being all England's all time points scorer as well as all time world cup points scorer and only second to Carter in all time points puts you up there surely? He is arguably one of England's best not saying THE best but easily top selection of players. I will never get the hate he gets from England fans, to sum his career up saying he's just a mouthy guy who played a lot with most of his performances are average is just wrong. Im not saying he doesn't deserve criticism he rightly does and the last few years he's been lucky to get more caps then he deserves but the disrespect he gets is unfair.

I mean does being top points scorer indicate being a goat? Or just they are picked more?

Farrell has nearly played as many games as Sexton who is 6 years older.

Farrell is a excellent 10 but throughout his England time there have been 10's who deserved to have played in games he started I feel.

It feels his position was just given and never seemed like other got a chance despite playing just as good or even more allrounded rugby

Toby Flood was a 10 that was imo criminally underused by lancaster

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Really at least
Cipriani
Flood
Burns
Ford

Should have gotten more caps during his tenure.

and you think he got a lot of his form at a Sarries team that was well above the cap.

 

[Reiser99]

Farrell has always been a good player and in the past excellent. However, his form has dropped significantly and for me he primarily holds back the England attack by kicking so much. I also don't think he's a good enough on field captain. Maybe in training and behind the scenes he's great, but on field he regularly gets on the wrong side of refs. Just look at the match against S.A when players had to pull him away. Obviously, games aren't won on a single moment, but certainly he got us marched back 10 metres and then penalty was then kicked. Also. I feel that when things are going wrong he doesn't seek to do anything different or motivate the rest of the players. Instead he doubles down and hopes the tactics will work in the end. He has been a great player for England, but for me definitely not the greatest, not even close.

Having said all this, Jones and Borthwick have to take a lot of criticism for continually picking him and going with tactics like that. Farrell is very good it seems at following tactics and he's had two coaches that have picked him and set him up in this way. For me the problem with Farrell starts with them.

 

[Jimbo]

Not seen any mentions of Jamie George thought he had been VC and done a bit with Sarries or am I mistaken?

 

[Jimbo]

Farrell has always been a good player and in the past excellent. However, his form has dropped significantly and for me he primarily holds back the England attack by kicking so much. I also don't think he's a good enough on field captain. Maybe in training and behind the scenes he's great, but on field he regularly gets on the wrong side of refs. Just look at the match against S.A when players had to pull him away. Obviously, games aren't won on a single moment, but certainly he got us marched back 10 metres and then penalty was then kicked. Also. I feel that when things are going wrong he doesn't seek to do anything different or motivate the rest of the players. Instead he doubles down and hopes the tactics will work in the end. He has been a great player for England, but for me definitely not the greatest, not even close.

Having said all this, Jones and Borthwick have to take a lot of criticism for continually picking him and going with tactics like that. Farrell is very good it seems at following tactics and he's had two coaches that have picked him and set him up in this way. For me the problem with Farrell starts with them.

I'm not a Borthwick fan at all and it will take a lot to convince me otherwise but I don't think he has really had opportunity to be judged as of yet, people would have been up in arms if we failed to get to the quarters/semi so he played it safe, for that I can forgive, with no looming WC it's now all upto him and he can and should be judged over the next few years, almost starting with a clean slate now.

 

[Reiser99]

I'm not a Borthwick fan at all and it will take a lot to convince me otherwise but I don't think he has really had opportunity to be judged as of yet, people would have been up in arms if we failed to get to the quarters/semi so he played it safe, for that I can forgive, with no looming WC it's now all upto him and he can and should be judged over the next few years, almost starting with a clean slate now.

I get that. What I meant more was that Borthwick picked Farrell even when he wasn't in form, so the blame starts with him if Farrell has a bad game.

 

[NickBD]

I mean does being top points scorer indicate being a goat? Or just they are picked more?

Farrell has nearly played as many games as Sexton who is 6 years older.

Farrell is a excellent 10 but throughout his England time there have been 10's who deserved to have played in games he started I feel.

It feels his position was just given and never seemed like other got a chance despite playing just as good or even more allrounded rugby

Toby Flood was a 10 that was imo criminally underused by lancaster

It doesn't and I don't think he is or even close to goat for that matter. I do think he is the top tier greats (maybe not top 3) for England, I'm sure most won't agree with that and that's ok. It was the dismissive attitude towards his talent and career I personally don't agree with. I agree with the rest 100% he's fortunate to start as many as he has but to say he's mostly average who got lucky and shouts a lot, I mean come on.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Farrell always struck me as the Sgt major type leader. Plenty of yelling, getting people to run hard, pushing them and executing orders with a lot of experience under his belt but not the sort of person you'd trust to think up the strategy, be involved with diplomacy or any of the more subtle stuff. I have no doubt he can be a motivator in the squad but I've never felt he was a captain.

 

[Arcturus]

The amount of current players, ex-pro's and coaches that rave about him is hight, yet it's the opposite with the majority of fans.

Are they not seeing what the rest of us do? I'm not buying we're all cluess rugby muppets. Perhaps they are just being nice and protecting there own careers. Just the disparity in opinion between fans / those 'in' the game seems high.

Then again i always thought AWJ was a pretty meh Captain so what do i know.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

A coaches dream captain but not necessarily a player's/fans one, I think
Not that I'm saying his teammates dislike him or anything but I've always thought the reason coaches love him is because he follows their plans so strictly and is great at getting everyone around him to stick to the plan - but when it comes to Plan B, it often looks like he's never heard of it
Bit like the episode of Malcolm in the Middle when Reece joins the army and is the top soldier in his regiment until his radio breaks and can't take orders anymore


Apparently there's talk now it could be a calendar year not just the 6N he's out for - if so I could see it essentially being a soft retirement

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

A coaches dream captain but not necessarily a player's/fans one, I think

Apparently there's talk now it could be a calendar year not just the 6N he's out for - if so I could see it essentially being a soft retirement

Nah he will play next year in build up to lions

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

It doesn't and I don't think he is or even close to goat for that matter. I do think he is the top tier greats (maybe not top 3) for England, I'm sure most won't agree with that and that's ok. It was the dismissive attitude towards his talent and career I personally don't agree with. I agree with the rest 100% he's fortunate to start as many as he has but to say he's mostly average who got lucky and shouts a lot, I mean come on.

He's not average at all.
In terms of talent he wouldn't be in my top 3 English 10's. But in terms of results yeh he would be one behind Wilko

 

[BrokenWing]

I have no doubt he can be a motivator in the squad but I've never felt he was a captain.

Depends if you find being shouted at motivating I suppose.

 

[Saintjay]

Depends if you find being shouted at motivating I suppose.

I was thinking similar. Depends on your motivation / leadership style. I prefer shouty, lead by example set standards types. More than the one to one, management sandwich, feedback is a gift style. Even EJ spoke how some players preferred shouting, other an arm around them and a quiet word.

 

[BrokenWing]

Bit different the coach shouting at you as opposed to another player shouting at you for not chasing their crap kick.