England 2022/23

[Welsh Exile]

What….
Cole was a top 3 th in his prime even with Major on the other side.

Also he's prob in his best form since like 6-7 years ago

Not for me. Even in his prime he came across as lazy at times. Good player for sure and I've not really followed him recently and if you say he's in good form then fair dos but I can't see any opposition being worried by Cole.

 

[Geordie]

I think the incoming coach can make a difference by just getting the top players to actually perform...ie Itoje, Curry etc...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Cole was a top 3 th in his prime even with Major on the other side.

I think it was an Aus tour where he got 2 opposition front rowers binned in the same series of scrums,
He was a very very dominant scrummager in his day,
As you say: He's in better form now than in a long time - I think because he's been allowed to be a prop again instead of slimming down and trying to play like a backrower (I still remember the big song and dance they made out of him working with a sprinting coach, as if that matters for a tighthead prop)

Honestly going off of merit and nothing else - he deserves to be in the EPS, probably the 23 and a good argument could be made for XV

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Who ever takes over will be ok by me if farrel never plays inside centre again

What about Farrell at outside centre then?

 

[Welsh Exile]

Has sinkers form been that bad? Genuine question.

 

[Geordie]

Who ever takes over will be ok by me if farrel never plays inside centre again

But who replaces him immediately...

Kelly - Injury issues
Ojomoh - Work in progress but not ready
Anyanwu - TBC - Work in Progress
Lozowski?
Slade - Meh...is he a 12?

Plenty of younger kids but they're not even playing for their clubs yet...

 

[Geordie]

Has sinkers form been that bad? Genuine question.

Yes since he moved to Bristol

 

[duncanb]

Who ever gets the job,I would just prefer to see squads picked on form.
Horses for course's at times certain teams you play against may need a change of approach.
Our player pool is good enough to always to be in with a shout at 6n and world cup.
Tours is where we need to experiment with others.
Would like personally see Saxons tours again for development as well.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Has sinkers form been that bad? Genuine question.

Kinda, but the bigger issue is there's no one in reserve
Heyes has lots of potential but is too green, really. I think he'll go to the RWC but it's probably a season or two too soon for him to play a serious part in it
Stuart has shown glimpses of what he can bring but they're glimpses at most - he's also injured quite a bit (came back from injury to go straight onto the bench for England and then vs the Boks got another serious looking injury)
beyond them....who knows?
Eddie was on about getting Val Rapava-Ruskin to cover tighthead but he's career-long loosehead, so that's just barmy

 

[Geordie]

Cant believe you forgot wor Trev....

 

[Welsh Exile]

Kinda, but the bigger issue is there's no one in reserve
Heyes has lots of potential but is too green, really. I think he'll go to the RWC but it's probably a season or two too soon for him to play a serious part in it
Stuart has shown glimpses of what he can bring but they're glimpses at most - he's also injured quite a bit (came back from injury to go straight onto the bench for England and then vs the Boks got another serious looking injury)
beyond them....who knows?
Eddie was on about getting Val Rapava-Ruskin to cover tighthead but he's career-long loosehead, so that's just barmy

Interesting. I would've thought persevering with Stuart, Heyes and Sinkler would be the way to go but if Cole is playing as well as people better informed than I are saying then he should be brought in on merit. When was the last time he played for England? The 2019 World Cup?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Interesting. I would've thought persevering with Stuart, Heyes and Sinkler would be the way to go but if Cole is playing as well as people better informed than I are saying then he should be brought in on merit. When was the last time he played for England? The 2019 World Cup?

In all likelihood it will be the way that whoever takes over will go - bringing Cole in is just a pipedream because he's comfortably the best scrummager of the lot, and that's an area that's becoming a real issue for England (worst scrum stats of the top 10 this autumn)

Sinckler's not the worst scrummager in the world but he's not a set piece specialist and we don't have anyone we could rotate in in a "horses for courses" scenario (same goes for loosehead, as well - vs SA we should've rotated in Marler not effing Mako)

 

[Geordie]

Sinkler needs a really good prop coach like Adam Jones at Quins, to bring him up to his best...

 

[Geordie]

i think we are in a far better position for LH than we are TH. In fact i think TH is a real concern.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

i think we are in a far better position for LH than we are TH. In fact i think TH is a real concern.

Theoretically we are, but unless the fringe players are getting game time it stays theoretical
Going into a RWC with Mako in the first choice 23 puts us in a worst position at 1/17 than a Sinckler/Stuart 3/18 would

 

[Grizwald]

Whoever is in charge can still only f#@k with the c@ck they've got.

I expect a bit of a dead cat bounce regardless, but how many world class players do England have?

Genge- picked in the world XV of the year. Questions marks over his scrummaging.

George/LCD

Sinkler. I thought he looked OK in the autumn despite his form generally being on a downward trajectory since 2019.

Itoje- world class for most as in he'd get in most international sides. His form has dipped for England.

Other Locks. There's a gap since Kruis went to Japan/retired. A position that Jones has looked at/discarded/brought back a la Isiekwe. Hill I'm not sure he'll ever be world class.

Open side. Despite the reservations Lawes after slimming down has become a very good flanker. World class? Debatable?

Blindside. Curry has fallen off a bit for me. He's bulked up which has improved his carrying but reduced his mobility could be a form/Eddie thing.

8 Billy maybe once was but after a decent summer tour looked very ineffective in the Autumn. May bounce back under a new coach, who knows. Simmonds is a good player but to have him in any side you need to have a 6/7 that make up for his short comings and offer balance. Dombrant I think his ceiling is high.

9. Some promising youngsters but no ones had a decent run through injury and Eddie.

10. Smith loads of potential. Although the autumn wasn't a good advertisement I still reckon Farrell is a world class 10.

12. Problem position for years. Reality is Farrell is probably one of the best options at 12. No one has really had a look or when they have, quickly dropped by Eddie.

13. There's decent options there, wouldn't say any are world class. Slade is very good as was/is Marchant. A legacy of Eddie will be him investing too much in Manu being fit, which arguably as a result made a total balls up of England's back line post world cup and the entire Jones era.

Wings. Lots of good options out there to go with someone rapid on one wing and a bigger more high ball competent on the other. May was world class for me, at the moment he isn't and age is agaisnt him. Nowell isn't.

FB Freddie Stewart, borderline world class and improving all the time and could get to truly world class level.

So maybe 1-5 World class players depending on how generous you're being?

Most off all I'll just be glad if the next coach doesn't use the WC as an excuse. I want to see England compete at the top table, win games and challenge for the 6N. Too many variables to only aim for the WC which let's face it was just an Eddie cop-out.

 

[Geordie]

But theres so many players that have just not been looked at...and his selection criteria is truly puzzling...

For Example Ive said it multiple times...but Jack Willis getting 19 mins across 2 tests out of 4 is just inexcusable.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Borthwick might start Kelly at 12, which I think would solve a lot of problems if he can stay fit

For Example Ive said it multiple times...but Jack Willis getting 19 mins across 2 tests out of 4 is just inexcusable.

He was only available for 3, tbf - definitely should've been used more though. Itoje never should've started a game at 6

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

I'm not hugely excited by Borthwick (Razer please), but it might be the right mix of continuity + new blood.

I expect something like Genge, George, Sink, Ribbans, Itoje, Chessum, Curry, Billy, Youngs (ew), Ford (if fit), Smith, Murley, Kelly, Slade, OHC and Steward with a bench of Marler, LCD, Heyes, Hill, Martin, JVP, Manu, Radwan.

 

[Geordie]

Borthwick might start Kelly at 12, which I think would solve a lot of problems if he can stay fit


He was only available for 3, tbf - definitely should've been used more though. Itoje never should've started a game at 6

Therein seems to be the question though.