Country Before Club

[Vieux Talonneur]

Just read that since 2009 Warburton has played 60 times for Wales and only 87 times for the Blues. McCaw's national / domestic ratio was pretty similar too.

To me, those are pretty shocking stats. I'm all for player welfare and prioritising the interests of the national team, but surely that's just plain wrong? But if that really is the direction of travel, we (the English) need to stop flogging our players or we'll never be able to compete.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Won't happen, clubs buy the players and want to get their money worth. Only way we can compete is to set down rules limiting playing time of players selected for the EPS or we offer financial incentives to clubs to achieve the same result. Infact I'm in favour of laws limiting the amount of time a player can play anyway. The like of Dan Cole get run into the ground and it's not good for their long term health. I should be something like you cannot play more than x number of minutes without y time to recover.

 

[nickdnz]

It's not wrong of McCaw. The NZRU are ultimately his employers - and so if they want him to rest as much as possible then he should do so. You don't hit 148 tests as an open-side by being used week in and week out by your club, particularly as he has gotten older and the SR season expands.

As mentioned - it won't happen in England because clubs contract players are really couldn't give a stuff about the national team.

 

[FrenchFan]

Won't happen here either. Clubs and union are so entrenched like I've never seen before.

FFR is going to hell with its team. Guaranteed.

 

[dullonien]

Warbs' case is a bit of an odd one, he's had a lot of injuries over the years, but seems to be fit in time for Wales tests. Some think it's something deliberate, I personally don't, as evidenced by his declaration that he'll likely never leave the Blues. Imo it's just fortunate/unfortunate timing, depending on how you see it.

The likes of Alun-Wyn Jones and Biggar rack up the appearances for the Ospreys, but they've had little injury worries in their careers thus far.

 

[AzaMatt]

With warburton being on a NDC now thats ok, i can see how it would be ridiculous for future players if the union were not part paying their wages though. apparently its a 60/40 split (might have that wrong) with the union paying the most so its understandable he plays more games for country. There 14 international matches for wales this year o_0

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Warbs' case is a bit of an odd one, he's had a lot of injuries over the years, but seems to be fit in time for Wales tests. Some think it's something deliberate, I personally don't, as evidenced by his declaration that he'll likely never leave the Blues. Imo it's just fortunate/unfortunate timing, depending on how you see it.

The likes of Alun-Wyn Jones and Biggar rack up the appearances for the Ospreys, but they've had little injury worries in their careers thus far.

AWJ is a machine, i honestly do not know how he has been going for so long with very little injury issues

 

[FrenchFan]

With warburton being on a NDC now thats ok, i can see how it would be ridiculous for future players if the union were not part paying their wages though.

Agreed. This is probably one of the biggest issue here. The union want their cake and eat it. They should share with the clubs the wages of the players they want. The current compensation system is unfair and cause of all the club v country trouble. ATM it doesn't satisfy the clubs that want more money for their players relative to the salaries they have to pay, and FFr that want more access to the players but won't get it.

 

[Peat]

How much is the FFR giving the clubs?

 

[valley commando]

Won't happen, clubs buy the players and want to get their money worth. Only way we can compete is to set down rules limiting playing time of players selected for the EPS or we offer financial incentives to clubs to achieve the same result. Infact I'm in favour of laws limiting the amount of time a player can play anyway. The like of Dan Cole get run into the ground and it's not good for their long term health. I should be something like you cannot play more than x number of minutes without y time to recover.

Laws may be the wrong term, I'm in favour of guidance though. Personally I think all players that are established Internationals should be centrally contracted with the larger part of their income coming from the respective Union, Wales for instance have 16 International matches in 2016 with the impact on players bodies I would limit the players to a total of 30 games maximum including club and international games. With an exception of up to 3 extra games should they reach the knockout stages of Europe.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Laws may be the wrong term, I'm in favour of guidance though. Personally I think all players that are established Internationals should be centrally contracted with the larger part of their income coming from the respective Union, Wales for instance have 16 International matches in 2016 with the impact on players bodies I would limit the players to a total of 30 games maximum including club and international games. With an exception of up to 3 extra games should they reach the knockout stages of Europe.

If it's guidance, clubs can ignore it. I think there should be laws on playing time for the well being of the players. This isn't covering them in cotton but simply recognising that English rugby players play a high impact sport week after week more than any other nation. Lots of clubs operate on the basis of grinding players into the dirt until they are done.

 

[McTallshort]

If it's guidance, clubs can ignore it. I think there should be laws on playing time for the well being of the players. This isn't covering them in cotton but simply recognising that English rugby players play a high impact sport week after week more than any other nation. Lots of clubs operate on the basis of grinding players into the dirt until they are done.

Think thats a bit unfair, player walfare and injury management is taken very seriously at clubs because players are the main assets and if you ruin them you will pay more in the long run.

Correct me if Im wrong but the current heavy work load in domestic rugby is down to rescheduling after the World cup. There is also a 3 test tour at the end of the season followed by AI's and even a Lions tour.

The clubs seem to be looking after their expensive assets, everyone else seems to want to grind them into the dirt without taking any risk regarding contracts and asset management.

 

[Peat]

Think thats a bit unfair, player walfare and injury management is taken very seriously at clubs because players are the main assets and if you ruin them you will pay more in the long run.

Correct me if Im wrong but the current heavy work load in domestic rugby is down to rescheduling after the World cup. There is also a 3 test tour at the end of the season followed by AI's and even a Lions tour.

The clubs seem to be looking after their expensive assets, everyone else seems to want to grind them into the dirt without taking any risk regarding contracts and asset management.

If the clubs wish to talk about central contracts to the RFU, I'm sure they'd be delighted. Yet it seems to me that every time the suggestion of such comes up here, it is quickly quashed by club fans.

I have seen nothing to make me think clubs are any more careful than unions in terms of player welfare and injury management i.e. haphazardly at best.

 

[McTallshort]

If the clubs wish to talk about central contracts to the RFU, I'm sure they'd be delighted. Yet it seems to me that every time the suggestion of such comes up here, it is quickly quashed by club fans.

I have seen nothing to make me think clubs are any more careful than unions in terms of player welfare and injury management i.e. haphazardly at best.

Has the RFU ever made a serious offer for central contracts? I mean really pushed the possibilty. I dont remember them doing, they always seem to be to busy making a mess of head coach selection to worry about player contracts.

 

[Peat]

Has the RFU ever made a serious offer for central contracts? I mean really pushed the possibilty. I dont remember them doing, they always seem to be to busy making a mess of head coach selection to worry about player contracts.

A fair question and not insofar as I recall - but that may be because they've seen no point asking. After all, PRL opted to divide the EPS cash evenly, then giving it to each club as per their representation; that doesn't point to an interest in the scheme.

 

[McTallshort]

A fair question and not insofar as I recall - but that may be because they've seen no point asking. After all, PRL opted to divide the EPS cash evenly, then giving it to each club as per their representation; that doesn't point to an interest in the scheme.

There is always a point asking a question if you want something enough, to me the RFU in the 25 years since Union became Pro have never once shown an interest in contracting players and have been happy to let the clubs take the risks. Now you have some very savvy club owners and still a very amateur run union so any move to central contracts will now cost the RFU a fortune which is probably more of a reason why they dont push the subject to hard.

 

[Peat]

There is always a point asking a question if you want something enough, to me the RFU in the 25 years since Union became Pro have never once shown an interest in contracting players and have been happy to let the clubs take the risks. Now you have some very savvy club owners and still a very amateur run union so any move to central contracts will now cost the RFU a fortune which is probably more of a reason why they dont push the subject to hard.

Yes and no. If I ask you "Can I punch in the face", not only are you going to not let me punch you in the face, but you are also going to be on your guard, making it harder for me to punch you in the face.

That said, maybe you're right. I think there's a greater appetite for it than there was (certainly Jones would push for it), but I'd imagine there's plenty willing to let the clubs take the risks.

Still - if the RFU offered - do you think the clubs would accept? Less risk and outlay for less control?

 

[McTallshort]

Yes and no. If I ask you "Can I punch in the face", not only are you going to not let me punch you in the face, but you are also going to be on your guard, making it harder for me to punch you in the face.

That said, maybe you're right. I think there's a greater appetite for it than there was (certainly Jones would push for it), but I'd imagine there's plenty willing to let the clubs take the risks.

Still - if the RFU offered - do you think the clubs would accept? Less risk and outlay for less control?

Well we dont know do we? Perhaps its gone too far now and the more business savvy clubs dont want their prized assets given over to a union that has never seemed bothered before. I think for it to happen the AP clubs would have to suddenly take a down turn in revenue that would see several of them near bust then they would probably go begging to the RFU for help but currently thats not the situation so the RFU and others who think the RFU should control matters will have to bide their time for now.

 

[Peat]

Agreed with that, although there is another possibility - PRL takes over the RFU.

 

[McTallshort]

Agreed with that, although there is another possibility - PRL takes over the RFU.

Now theres a thought! Now that would be a big power struggle and one that would probably show the RFU in its true light.

 

[FrenchFan]

How much is the FFR giving the clubs?

1300 euros per player per day which is a joke relative to the high salary paid by clubs and the risk of injury to their player.