Club World Cup

[Umaga's Witness]

Yeah Razor's so dumb he only plays one type of rugby just like the mediocre coaches.

Hey you said it. Jokes.

Like I said, the crusaders don't have the players to beat Leinster. This is why I was saying the all blacks needed to select de groot, taukeiaho, why Scott barrett at 6 (although vaai would have been better) and faingaanuku were good choices in the first test. To take the theory to the extreme, you can't ask someone in primary school to play like will Skelton and expect the same result.

Here's some other things about the crusaders this year that would get them smashed by Leinster - due to discipline issue and at times inferior kicking game (despite clearly having the right players, the coaching wasn't always right) they often didn't have territory and possession. You can't rely on defence against Leinster, there attack is way too good. The crusaders also can't dominate leinsters scrum, although their reserve scrum would definitely have a better chance.

 

[miccloarch]

Leinster couldn't even win the European Cup nor the URC, losing to SA teams that the Crusaders would have obliterated lol.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Leinster couldn't even win the European Cup nor the URC, losing to SA teams that the Crusaders would have obliterated lol.

The question was whether the crusaders would beat leinster, not whether the crusaders would beat a team that beat leinster. Plus you'd have to question whether leinster were up for the URC not long after the lows of losing the only real prize they care about - the European cup. Regardless, the bulls, like La Rochelle, this year and last, Or saracens prior to that, beat Leinster in ways that the crusaders can't.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Is argue the teams that had better prep and less travel would win. Those with the less fatigued team who cared more.

Still a stupid idea that I hope never happens.

 

[Rinkadink]

Is argue the teams that had better prep and less travel would win. Those with the less fatigued team who cared more.

Still a stupid idea that I hope never happens.

Doesn't this also apply to the normal rugby world cup?

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Doesn't this also apply to the normal rugby world cup?

Yea and no. Club players get treated very differently from international players in some counties.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Dude the crusaders would get smashed by Leinster. Have you watched the crusaders and Leinster?

I have, quite extensively, and I don't think so. I really don't.

Talking about the saders team that played '22 SR vs Leinster's '22 ERCC? Full team? On neutral ground? Saders. Hell, make it at Croke park. crusaders.

I mean, we dont have that much evidence to guess how a SH vs NH club thing would look like, so there is a considerable amount of speculation, but we do have some things we could look at, and that is how South African clubs/franchises have done against both competitions.
You think Leinster could bully around Crusader's pack on scrums, lines, mauls and rucks like they do with most NH teams? I most certainly do not.
Whitelock, Barrett, Taylor, Matera, Blackadder, Christie.
Should i include blackadder? Pre/post injury?

Wanna look at the backs: Reece, Jordan, Mounga, Havili , that guy named leicester or something, Goodhue...
Goodhue is their weakest link ffs!! Goodhue (he's no slouch, quite the contrary).

In a one-off Leinster has a shot, sure.
But should they play a best of 10 to eliminate luck from the equation... well i don't see how Leinster can get that. 0 chances of winning imo.
Zero.

Disclosure: i am reasonably fond of Leinster and i don't give a fvck about the Saders, but i'd like to think i am sincere and intellectually honest individual who just likes to call a spade a spade. Any bias i could come up with, if any, should be against the crusaders and for leinster.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Don't really know why this is focused on Leinster v Crusaders, not really sure how that'd go but I reckon we have a better chance in a series than a one off knockout game which are hardly our forte. The list of players above doesn't convince me we'd be out matched, a handful of those guys don't make our XV, Taylor doesn't make the matchday squad rn. I don't watch SR though and Robertson's rep suggests he's better than our two who are beginning to threaten underachiever status.

One thing I'd be fairly confident of is a French winner of a proper knockout tournament, you have to go through 2+ French sides to win, that's not easy even when a selection of their sides half ass the Heineken Cup.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

About the topic, i am a bit surprised about the responses. I would LOVE to see this. It brings back so many memories. Old sentimental crap ahead, i warn you. Stop reading. Stop reading i tell you!

Not that long ago, footie had a comp called the intercontinental cup. Basically the winner of Champions league and the Libertadores cup (the cup the CL was based on). Best of Europe vs best in South America. One game, winner takes all in Japan (wasn't always like this).

It was interesting how differently important this trophy was to players and fans.
In South Am it was HUGE to both. In Europe players claimed it was v important to them while a LOT of fans weren't even aware of their existence. Again, one game, usually played at a ridiculous time. Half the countries didnt even broadcast it. We used to remind ourselves to set the alarm, wake up and watch it on a tele, sound off, while we listened to the radio using headphones.
It was played on Tuesday's for quite a while, school night and all.


We saw it, in a way, a bit as a clack between talent vs money. Or maybe that is how we wanted to look at it. That was until euro teams started picking up 16 year olds. We couldnt really compete after that.
Results ver incredibly close. 22 wins for South America, 21 for Europe. 25 different winning clubs (13 from SA, 12 from Europe).
It was a bit odd at first watching a team representing south america, composed 100% of south americans, face a team representing europe, composed +20%(being generous here) by south americans.


I see a lot of similarities between this and how a NH vs SH club thingie would look like, and i would very much like to see it happen.

In a lot of ways, i was brought up in an environment where club (usually tied to city or even neighborhood) comes before country. I like the idea of taking that to the next level. How do you get to take that team you love to be the best in the world.
I know, sure, franchises ≠ clubs. Spare me the technical fandango.

 

[big ginger 8]

Don't really know why this is focused on Leinster v Crusaders, not really sure how that'd go but I reckon we have a better chance in a series than a one off knockout game which are hardly our forte. The list of players above doesn't convince me we'd be out matched, a handful of those guys don't make our XV, Taylor doesn't make the matchday squad rn. I don't watch SR though and Robertson's rep suggests he's better than our two who are beginning to threaten underachiever status.

One thing I'd be fairly confident of is a French winner of a proper knockout tournament, you have to go through 2+ French sides to win, that's not easy even when a selection of their sides half ass the Heineken Cup.

Yeah Codie Taylor of today and Scott Barrett are not exactly names to strike fear in Leinster fans hearts. Listing names for one team but not the other isn't a super compelling argument to me.

I don't know who would win but agree over a series, especially best of 10?!, we'd have an excellent chance especially given our generally greater depth.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Don't really know why this is focused on Leinster v Crusaders,

That's easy, they are what many consider to be the best teams in the N and S hemispheres. I am one of those people.

not really sure how that'd go but I reckon we have a better chance in a series than a one off knockout game which are hardly our forte.

It is your forte when you are the better team (not on a specific game but overall), and i believe you were both against the bulls and rochelle. Leinster plays those games 10 times and i don't think it's worth arguing Leinster wins most. Comfortably.
It is not that knock-out games aren't your forte. They are not your forte BECAUSE you are playing against arguably weaker teams.

The thing is i believe that is most definitely NOT the case with crusaders. The weaker team benefits from a one-off, the stronger team benefits from a longer series. Longer series minimize the influence of luck, shorter ones enhance it.
The weaker side needs luck to win. Weaker sides need to take chances and risks and hope they pay off that day. Those chances are by definition unlikely which means they could work on a game or set of games, but not most of the time.
You can disagree with my statement of the crusaders being the stronger team. I am just outlaying the rationale behind my statement, which is sound, obviously!

Yeah Codie Taylor of today and Scott Barrett are not exactly names to strike fear in Leinster fans hearts. Listing names for one team but not the other isn't a super compelling argument to me.

Again, it's not like we have ample evidence to go along with this subject, so give me some rope ffs. let's try and work with the tools at our disposal. Hardly ideal or conclusive proof, sure, but it's what we've got.

I'm sure the bulls squad didn't inspire much fear into the hearts of leinster fans either. Trust me, crusaders are a different animal. Fvck trust, just watch their games. Dismissing taylor and barrett after what happened against la rochelle and bulls seems, dunno, a bit brave. Crusaders pack is a monster. Ask anyone here who follows sr.

I follow SR by choice and european rugby by time zone and because most of the people i hang out with support teams in those competitions. You know how it is.
I am in no way an authority but i follow both comps week after week. Like many here, maybe even most. My intuition tells me most SH follow more NH rugby than vice versa. It's easier.

I really dont see leinster beating the crusaders. Rephase: i do, i just dont see that being the most likely scenario.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

That's easy, they are what many consider to be the best teams in the N and S hemispheres. I am one of those people.

That's fair I suppose, I really don't think we are. We should be on playing talent alone but I think our coaching and leadership has let us down in the last two seasons, we honestly couldn't have done worse in either imo and I'm currently in a tiny minority of Leinsterfans that think we need a change of coaching staff after the upcoming season. I doubt there's a club team in the world that goes through a selection of La Rochelle, Toulouse, Montpellier and Leinster over three knockout games though which would likely be required to win a competition of this type.

It is your forte when you are the better team (not on a specific game but overall), and i believe you were both against the bulls and rochelle. Leinster plays those games 10 times and i don't think it's worth arguing Leinster wins most. Comfortably.
It is not that knock-out games aren't your forte. They are not your forte BECAUSE you are playing against arguably weaker teams.

Again a fair assessment, not one I agree with though. I think the occasion and pressure got to us massively in Marseille, I was at that and the semi final and the players body language was completely different, they seemed less vocal on an eye test and altogether far more rigid and closed off, all that despite being relatively dominant in the first half. After a bad first half v the Bulls I'd guess the same applied but I wasn't at that one.

The thing is i believe that is most definitely NOT the case with crusaders. The weaker team benefits from a one-off, the stronger team benefits from a longer series. Longer series minimize the influence of luck, shorter ones enhance it.
The weaker side needs luck to win. Weaker sides need to take chances and risks and hope they pay off that day. Those chances are by definition unlikely which means they could work on a game or set of games, but not most of the time.
You can disagree with my statement of the crusaders being the stronger team. I am just outlaying the rationale behind my statement, which is sound, obviously!

Mine was more an internal look at Leinster, I can't compare to the Crusaders, only commented based on their players not exactly being out of Leinster's league or anything. I just know if I had a choice as a Leinster fan for a neutral tie I'd back us in a series of matches rather than one no matter the opposition, we have the talent to beat anyone but I don't think our coaches are great assessors of opposition sides like I believe Schmidt and Farrell to be for example, so having a week to go back to the drawing board and reassess will help us more than our opponents.

One other thing I'd wonder about SR based on your analysis of the Crusaders is how much the SR format benefits their best sides. They have one uninterrupted block of games, the cohesion for the best coached sides must be off the charts. Comparatively, between the first and last European games there's two full international windows and multiple mini training weekends for Irish players. The longest (mostly) uninterrupted in season block our squads get is from December to the first week in February before players go off to Irish camp and this is generally when the Leinster hype train gets going, afterwards second string losses get ignored and disjointed performances excused due to the 6 nations. Leinster were at their very best when Declan Kidney was ignoring a lot of our better players for Munster guys he was comfortable with*. I do wonder if SR would be a bit more random like European rugby if the rugby championship was played in March and April.

*Also when we had guys like Nacewa and Hines available each week which is huge and a counterpoint to this.

 

[big ginger 8]

Again, it's not like we have ample evidence to go along with this subject, so give me some rope ffs. let's try and work with the tools at our disposal. Hardly ideal or conclusive proof, sure, but it's what we've got.

I'm sure the bulls squad didn't inspire much fear into the hearts of leinster fans either. Trust me, crusaders are a different animal. Fvck trust, just watch their games. Dismissing taylor and barrett after what happened against la rochelle and bulls seems, dunno, a bit brave. Crusaders pack is a monster. Ask anyone here who follows sr.

I follow SR by choice and european rugby by time zone and because most of the people i hang out with support teams in those competitions. You know how it is.
I am in no way an authority but i follow both comps week after week. Like many here, maybe even most. My intuition tells me most SH follow more NH rugby than vice versa. It's easier.

I really dont see leinster beating the crusaders. Rephase: i do, i just dont see that being the most likely scenario.

There was 4 games last season where a large chunk of players from both teams shared the same pitch. These seem to have been ignored completely. Fair enough if you don't weigh them that much due to Foster's coaching but they're a lot more relevant than just listing players. It's a weak line of argument for me because that's all it was, a list, there wasn't even a comparison against their opposite numbers. If I did the same thing you would rightfully deride me for it.

I didn't intend to 'dismiss' Taylor and Barrett although I can see how it comes across as that. They however, are definitely not trump cards and I don't think the matches vs Bulls or La Rochelle change that for me. As said by Alpha already, I don't think Taylor makes the Leinster 23, he's a very good player but we have one of the best hooker duos out there. Similarly you name Havili who is class but definitely not as good as Henshaw for me The Crusaders' pack might be a monster pack but they are much more a monster pack in the same vein as Leinster than the La Rochelle pack. That is via being ruthlessly efficient at ruck time and smart in contact not by having a load of 125kg players who will smash into you all day and a very strong scrum. This is not saying the Crusaders do not have a very good scrum by the way but it would not be able to milk penalties the same way La Rochelle did.

You also like a certain subsection of people seem to have decided that Leinster have only got a rep for a strong pack because they beat up on weak packs in the league. Matches like the Toulouse one suggest it might not be as clear cut as that.

As to the bolded part, that might possibly be true now but I'd doubt it. Although it does depend what you're calling a NH competition with the increased blurring of the lines there. Obviously the lack of a tv partner hear will have killed viewing figures in Ireland and the UK but until then I'd have undoubtedly said more NH fans watched SR than vice versa. Certainly the amount of Australian's and NZers that watch NH rugby would always have struck me as very low and I don't really see how it would be easier for them. It's easier to watch a match at 8am on a Saturday morning rather than getting up at 4am on a Sunday...I can see it being the way in Argentian but I don't think you can generalise it to the SH.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

One other thing I'd wonder about SR based on your analysis of the Crusaders is how much the SR format benefits their best sides.

As in the best vs worst within SR or as in the best in SR playing agaisnt the best in Europe.

The former, imo, quite a lot. Not as much as it was when RSA was playing but still a lot.
The latter, it depends on what the date for such a game is. Since i am not aware of a date i assumed no or neutral impact from this. I don't see either side accepting a date that puts them at a disadvantage so that looks like a reasonable assumption. If such a date exists, of course.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

A lot of interesting points, cant adress all so i'll cherry pick.

I don't think Taylor makes the Leinster 23, he's a very good player but we have one of the best hooker duos out there

he doesnt have to. My point is that he is miles ahead of the competition which gave Leinster quite a lot of headaches. I'm using him as a part of a group. I expressed myself quite poorly i suppose.
I didnt mention their opposite numbers (i did and deleted it), true.
Lets make it simple and bound, for accuracy.

Who had the better pack in 2022, saders or leinster? Lets hear from non leinster/crusaders forum members to eliminate bias. I'm out too.

Can we get a poll here Oly?

And remeber, please because this is important, we are making this poll AFTER ireland beat nz. Quite sure that will have an impact on the results, when it should not.

You also like a certain subsection of people seem to have decided that Leinster have only got a rep for a strong pack

I wouldnt use the word 'only', and i dont think i have to explain at this point that i consider Sexton a demi-god and i am particularly fond of Ringrose, Henshaw, Keenan, Lowe and Larmour.
That ringrose-henshaw find has been one of the best discoveries for ireland since spanish conquistadors brought potatoes to europe. You can quote me on that. I know you want to.

Especially considering who their predecessors were. I guess we all expected we would have to lower our expectations when BOD and Darcy retired and that did not happen. Not at all.
But it is Lei's pack that feeds that back line. I dont think Lei's backline is what causes headaches to most defensive coaches. Their pack most certainly does.
Sure, a game or two per year they get outmuscled at dynamic formations (NEVER at fixed) and the backs have to rise to the occasion to compensate.

My point is, that as strong as that set of backs is, i don't see it ahead of their crusaders' counterpart. I am willing to put both sets of backs at par. Fine with that. I can see not only the crusader's pack matching Lei's pack, i can see them pushing them back.

Crusaders have also shown time and time again that when **** hits the fan they don't shy away from the challenge. Doesn't mean they'll win, but they will most certainly throw everything but the sink at the team in front of them. The game against blues comes to mind.


I enjoy these sorts of arguments. If only people supported a NH vs SH club game final to end all this speculation. Do it in a place like Spain, Portugal. Doesn't even have to be yearly.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I'd much rather watch a West Country bath vs Gloucester derby than some fake rivalry between the northern and Southern Hemispheres.

There are too many games as it is, too much strain in the players, this would add extra travel and stress on these players that's not needed.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

There was 4 games last season where a large chunk of players from both teams shared the same pitch. These seem to have been ignored completely. Fair enough if you don't weigh them that much due to Foster's coaching but they're a lot more relevant than just listing players. It's a weak line of argument for me because that's all it was, a list, there wasn't even a comparison against their opposite numbers. If I did the same thing you would rightfully deride me for it.

I didn't intend to 'dismiss' Taylor and Barrett although I can see how it comes across as that. They however, are definitely not trump cards and I don't think the matches vs Bulls or La Rochelle change that for me. As said by Alpha already, I don't think Taylor makes the Leinster 23, he's a very good player but we have one of the best hooker duos out there. Similarly you name Havili who is class but definitely not as good as Henshaw for me The Crusaders' pack might be a monster pack but they are much more a monster pack in the same vein as Leinster than the La Rochelle pack. That is via being ruthlessly efficient at ruck time and smart in contact not by having a load of 125kg players who will smash into you all day and a very strong scrum. This is not saying the Crusaders do not have a very good scrum by the way but it would not be able to milk penalties the same way La Rochelle did.

i agree with this

 

[Umaga's Witness]

A lot of interesting points, cant adress all so i'll cherry pick.

he doesnt have to. My point is that he is miles ahead of the competition which gave Leinster quite a lot of headaches. I'm using him as a part of a group. I expressed myself quite poorly i suppose.
I didnt mention their opposite numbers (i did and deleted it), true.
Lets make it simple and bound, for accuracy.

Who had the better pack in 2022, saders or leinster? Lets hear from non leinster/crusaders forum members to eliminate bias. I'm out too.

Can we get a poll here Oly?

And remeber, please because this is important, we are making this poll AFTER ireland beat nz. Quite sure that will have an impact on the results, when it should not.

I wouldnt use the word 'only', and i dont think i have to explain at this point that i consider Sexton a demi-god and i am particularly fond of Ringrose, Henshaw, Keenan, Lowe and Larmour.
That ringrose-henshaw find has been one of the best discoveries for ireland since spanish conquistadors brought potatoes to europe. You can quote me on that. I know you want to.

Especially considering who their predecessors were. I guess we all expected we would have to lower our expectations when BOD and Darcy retired and that did not happen. Not at all.
But it is Lei's pack that feeds that back line. I dont think Lei's backline is what causes headaches to most defensive coaches. Their pack most certainly does.
Sure, a game or two per year they get outmuscled at dynamic formations (NEVER at fixed) and the backs have to rise to the occasion to compensate.

My point is, that as strong as that set of backs is, i don't see it ahead of their crusaders' counterpart. I am willing to put both sets of backs at par. Fine with that. I can see not only the crusader's pack matching Lei's pack, i can see them pushing them back.

Crusaders have also shown time and time again that when **** hits the fan they don't shy away from the challenge. Doesn't mean they'll win, but they will most certainly throw everything but the sink at the team in front of them. The game against blues comes to mind.


I enjoy these sorts of arguments. If only people supported a NH vs SH club game final to end all this speculation. Do it in a place like Spain, Portugal. Doesn't even have to be yearly.

I made my views well before Ireland beat NZ. This is something I often think about/ analyse. I gamble on rugby, so I'm always asking the question of what can I tell from how team x played team y that I can translate to team x playing team z, that's the fun in gambling so while I cant gamble on Leinster vs the crusaders I get the same joy out of the hypothetical question.

Now, can I ask, did you make your views before watching all blacks? If not, something to consider is how much putting the all blacks form all down to foster (/unconsciously buying into the hype) might have influenced your thinking.

And have no bias, pretty much neutral to both. Admire both teams but don't support either.

Can't see crusaders defence handling Leinster for a start. Crusaders are no better than say a Munster, actually they are worse, at disrupting Leinster at the break down. And all points I made in my other posts. Some of which you have said the direct opposite about, so I guess we just disagree. I can't see the crusaders bullying Leinster like La Rochelle or saracens have for instance. Scrums- Michael alaalatoa was a consistent starter for the crusaders but struggled in scrums in the northern hemisphere. The crusaders reserve scrum vs Leinster is the exception as the only area where the crusaders might bully Leinster. But I'm just repeating myself.

To further repeat myself (obviously I love it), I think the chiefs might be able to beat Leinster. Again repeating myself (thanks for the opportunity), this is why I was arguing for players like taukeiaho and de groot and vaai at six to start against Ireland.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Now, can I ask, did you make your views before watching all blacks?

Quite a few times, directly and indirectly. We can go as far back as 2016 if you look at the argie thread where we discussed whether joining SR was better for Jags as opposed to joining (what is now called) URC. The level of competition was touched, extensively and Crusaders and Leinster being the best of both leagues was an obvious reference.
But lets not go back THAT far.


Here is one from 2018

Touched a nerve apparently.
Instead of speculating what you think i'll ask you 3 a straight question. How do you think that game would go?

'that game' was leinster vs crusaders

Source: https://www.therugbyforum.com/threa...-final-4-august-2018.41869/page-3#post-912603

Here is one from May 2022
If you want the latest ones, i guess this one, although a question and not a statement, is reasonably straightforward

Quick question, just to gauge a bit. If the crusaders were to play, dunno, Leinster, Leicester or Toulouse, tomorrow, no injuries, no bs, neutral ground. Who do you think would win?

Source: https://www.therugbyforum.com/threa...s-for-10-years-time.38763/page-4#post-1089411

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

And have no bias, pretty much neutral to both. Admire both teams but don't support either.

Fair enough. If i pointed fingers at you i apologize. I was making a generalization.

I just perceive a massive, MASSIVE underestimation of the crusaders here. Gargantuan.
Again, hardly perfect or irrefutable evidence, i know, but ask bulls' fans who they'd rather face. Or Stormers.

One season, ONE SINGLE SEASON was all it took for the best SA teams (bulls, stormers, sharks and lions (apologies to cheetahs and kings, but that's unfortunately true)) to get two of them to the competition's final.

I can't see any (intellectually honest) bulls, sharks or stormers fans arguing they would like their odds against crusaders in 2022.

And let's not even get into things like consistency etc. They've lost only a handful of games since 2017 and every one of them is a nailbiter. So much that the only tournament they didn't win was 2021's trans tasman where

- they won all their games
- those who advanced to the final never faced the crusaders

They basically had to adjust SR's format to level the playing field. And i'm not taking about opposition like zebre or dragons.


This conversation makes me a bit uncomfortable as i probably come across as a saders rabid fan. Nothing could be further from the truth. But i find it hard to believe we are actually questioning whether they are the best club level team in the planet.