CJ Stander to retire at the end of the season

[BiggusLaddus]

And the lad from some African jungle who never swam in a pool before his 1st heat (it was all Lakes) and was very very slow but embodied the spirit of the Olympics.

Eric the eel!

 

[munstermuffin]

You keep on saying no other contract was offered. But I will again ask, why would another contract be offered to him, when he was still under contract with the Bulls. And it was his first year in the senior squad, with a fresh agreement. Unless CJ personally approached them, and asked them if they would sign him.

Plus, have a look at the backrowers of SA that played in 2012:
Duane Vermeulen (who made his debut in 2012)
Pierre Spies
Schalk Burger (Another SA Flanker that won World Player of Year in 2004)
Willem Alberts
Marcell Coetzee
Francois Louw
Heinrich Brussouw
Juan Smith
Ryan Kankowski
Arno Botha

All of these guys, except for Duane Vermeulen was already capped Springboks! The competition at flanker in South Africa is immense!! Also note, that not a single guy on this list is a player of colour, which negates the issue of quota players getting the nod before him... Siya Kolisi was in the running, but he was injured at that time. All these players were well known and top class players. It would have taken an exceptional youngster to be selected above these players.

2012 was also the first year Heyneke Meyer became coach of the Sprinboks, taking over from PDV. Also, there was a limitation on the amount of players allowed to be selected from abroad.

Only Ruan Pienaar and Francois Louw were selected for the RC that wasn't based in SA.




The fact that you didn't know who Ryk Neethling was, or that he was part of the 4 swimmers that won a gold olympic medal in swimming, just shows how little you know about SA sport. They are legends in SA. Ryk Neethling and Roland Schoeman have a massive following.

Ryk Neethling is now even in charge of fellow swimmer, and now princess of Monaco's charity fund.

Ok CJ's contract was up in the October. When he joined Munster he was out of contract in Bulls. So what should he have done?

And then you mention all in front of him so basically saying he wasn't needed yes?

And CJ toured when still with Bulls so like they could have capped then.

To be honest there is a lot of holes in your story.

I already had said I know very little about swimming and outside Rugby know little on SA sport.

 

[munstermuffin]

Eric the eel!

Is that the lad.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Ok CJ's contract was up in the October. When he joined Munster he was out of contract in Bulls. So what should he have done?

And then you mention all in front of him so basically saying he wasn't needed yes?

And CJ toured when still with Bulls so like they could have capped then.

To be honest there is a lot of holes in your story.

I already had said I know very little about swimming and outside Rugby know little on SA sport.

https://supersport.com/rugby/sa-rugby/news/120620/Stander_decision_rocks_Bulls_SA - This article was posted on 20 June 2012

All SA contracts usually run out end of October of each year. There is the option of renewing the contract, and negotiate terms. Pretty standard. He signed in June, which would have left him with a couple of months to negotiate.

Also, there would have been the consideration of the 2nd-year syndrome, many players have. Where they are brilliant in their first year in Super Rugby, and then in their second year, falter, sometimes quite badly. He was a youngster, and he had to contend with the likes of other springboks within the Bulls camp too, like Deon Stegman and Dewald Potgieter. There was no indication that CJ would have been dropped, and to suggest that his contract wouldn't have been renewed is also ludicrous. The article mentions that the Bulls at that time couldn't match what Munster offered him.

Our season runs from January to October locally, with the EOYT in November for international matches. Contract negotiations are usually between September and December, where teams assemble their Super Squads and have their first camps in December, and sometimes in November for the fringe players while the Springbok Players are on tour.

Don't see the hole in what I'm saying, just offering a different perspective.

 

[munstermuffin]

https://supersport.com/rugby/sa-rugby/news/120620/Stander_decision_rocks_Bulls_SA - This article was posted on 20 June 2012

All SA contracts usually run out end of October of each year. There is the option of renewing the contract, and negotiate terms. Pretty standard. He signed in June, which would have left him with a couple of months to negotiate.

Also, there would have been the consideration of the 2nd-year syndrome, many players have. Where they are brilliant in their first year in Super Rugby, and then in their second year, falter, sometimes quite badly. He was a youngster, and he had to contend with the likes of other springboks within the Bulls camp too, like Deon Stegman and Dewald Potgieter. There was no indication that CJ would have been dropped, and to suggest that his contract wouldn't have been renewed is also ludicrous. The article mentions that the Bulls at that time couldn't match what Munster offered him.

Our season runs from January to October locally, with the EOYT in November for international matches. Contract negotiations are usually between September and December, where teams assemble their Super Squads and have their first camps in December, and sometimes in November for the fringe players while the Springbok Players are on tour.

Don't see the hole in what I'm saying, just offering a different perspective.

Yes and if you read it you will see he stated it wasn't financial. And more so was on discussions had.
Yes he signed in June as all players usually do a few months before hand. And arrived in October. Like I am still lost here. CJ has been clear from day 1 in his story and it seems to be logical and fair.
Like you are making claims now they waited until they seen had he 2nd year syndrome. Maybe the Bulls felt they couldn't match but there no mention they offered a deal. In fact it says "
However, it may be that the Bulls' preference for their own loose trio of Pierre Spies, Dewald Potgieter and Deon Stegmann, coupled with the arrival of Jacques Potgieter and the up-and-coming former SA under-20 captain Arno Botha, may have something to do with the decision.

The Bulls also have current SA under-20 captain Wian Liebenberg and IRB Junior World Cup Player of the Year nominee Shaun Adendorff."

So maybe Bulls felt the same as Mayer and that he wasn't good enough as a backrower and would only offer a deal if he moved to hooker.

To suggest now that the timing should have meant CJ waited to hear is BS too. If SA Rugby and Bulls wanted him then they'd at least have made an offer. And if the point you are making is true then I'd be more worried for the poor poor business model.

I still see huge holes like:
1. Where is proof he was offered a deal as backrower to dispute what CJ said?
2. What did IRFU/Ireland do wrong. They never snatched any young guy.
3. If you were told unless you change you're going nowhere what would you have done?
4. If SA rated him so highly why didn't they cap him. Knowing well he would not have been allowed stay in Ireland then also as he'd be an NIQ player. Again if this is not known in SA then I'd seriously question SARU.

In fact the more I hear stories from Rassie when he was here, Jacques also and others SARU seems to be winging it.

That amongst so so many other items seems to leave many many holes.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Judges decisions are heavily scrutinized in and out of their jurisdictions,

Scrutiny and competition are very different things!

Again it's really not, look at Ryan Giggs and Stephen Ireland, they refused to play for their countries throughout their careers to protect their club careers.

Nonono. That happens only because a) they played for third tear nations with zero change of winning any international competition they take part of b) Their clubs are actually a decent contender in every competition they took part of c) the finances of footie in terms of national vs club are not quite the same as rugby. National income is marginal in footie.

Do Martin Castrogiovanni and Diego Dominguez just not exist?

Are you serious? They played for Italy only because they never would have qualified to play for Argentina. Was hardly even considered. I think he had like two games in the pumas. He was in a group of players waiting for Porta to get tired/injure.

Trezeguet(footie), Parisse and Noriega are propper examples but we'd need to open another thread.

it's clear anyway we just don't agree here.

Fair enough.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Can you tell me what club in SA offered him a role as a backrow player? Stormers didn't, Sharks didn't, Cheetahs didn't

Those are confidential, how the **** would I (or you) know? He was a star at the jr Sprinboks in the u20 world cup. I find it very, very hard to believe he wouldn't manage to get a spot in any south African franchise.

So effectively are you saying the Beast shouldn't play with South Africa? As he was younger but left for Financial and Education reasons?

I have conflicting thought/feelings about his (or Brian Mujati's) case. Give me a min to elaborate (think I've said this before). Let's make one thing clear: i understand that by "should" you mean how i would like things to be, not whether he is allowed to do that.

Instinctively i'd say no. He is Zimbabwean, born, raised and educated.
Ideally, i would like the player never, ever, to be able to choose the country he will represent. He can choose whether to represent that country or not, but never which country.
But I do understand we live in a world where people move places, etc, and the practical implications these things have.

So given all of the above, i would say, if there is a choice to be made by the player, it can only be made once. Not buts, no ifs, no exceptions. Pick, but pick carefully. Once you put on a country's jersey, that's for life (my wish, not how it is, opv) As far as i understand, Beast never represented Zimbabwe in any way or form.
Had Beast represented Zimbabwe at darts when he was 7, i'd say no.
But to give you a straight answer to a straight question, in beast's case, i'd say yes, he can play. I don't like it, not one bit, but i'd allow it for practical reasons.

If you represent country A, in any sport, i'd like it if you would be unable to represent any other country in any other sport.

 

[munstermuffin]

Those are confidential, how the **** would I (or you) know? He was a star at the jr Sprinboks in the u20 world cup. I find it very, very hard to believe he wouldn't manage to get a spot in any south African franchise.


I have conflicting thought/feelings about his (or Brian Mujati's) case. Give me a min to elaborate (think I've said this before). Let's make one thing clear: i understand that by "should" you mean how i would like things to be, not whether he is allowed to do that.

Instinctively i'd say no. He is Zimbabwean, born, raised and educated.
Ideally, i would like the player never, ever, to be able to choose the country he will represent. He can choose whether to represent that country or not, but never which country.
But I do understand we live in a world where people move places, etc, and the practical implications these things have.

So given all of the above, i would say, if there is a choice to be made by the player, it can only be made once. Not buts, no ifs, no exceptions. Pick, but pick carefully. Once you put on a country's jersey, that's for life (my wish, not how it is, opv) As far as i understand, Beast never represented Zimbabwe in any way or form.
Had Beast represented Zimbabwe at darts when he was 7, i'd say no.
But to give you a straight answer to a straight question, in beast's case, i'd say yes, he can play. I don't like it, not one bit, but i'd allow it for practical reasons.

If you represent country A, in any sport, i'd like it if you would be unable to represent any other country in any other sport.

On first bit. I know from working with CJ but also as he's been vocal about it as has others confirmed.

On 2nd bit. That a bit hypocritical like there no grey area you either fully back it or not

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

That a bit hypocritical like there no grey area you either fully back it or not

You clearly don't fully grasp the meaning of the word hypocritical nor how to use it.
Did you learn English with CJ?
That could explain it.

 

[munstermuffin]

You clearly don't fully grasp the meaning of the word hypocritical nor how to use it.
Did you learn English with CJ?
That could explain it.

Again if all you can do is hit me with an insult as your side then well guess that shows your grasp. Won't engage in it. FYI hypocrisy is clear you slam CJ yet ok The Beast. Both came for financial/professional reasons. You're saying 1 case is ok the other isn't.
The Beast played many 7s tournaments as a Zimbabwean but obviously not official tournaments.
And basically you are saying if you are a late bloomer who was not good enough underage you are free to switch but if you were good enough at young age and told no contract as a backrower you should be ridiculed.

Seems preery clear to me. But again I take insults as a compliment. Enjoy the weekend. And I would add my English is perfect but comment about CJs. Well hopefully you're more an adult away from keyboard as that attitude/mentality is what world is trying to eliminate. The racism/segregation attitude.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Well this thread seems to have escalated. But CJ won't care what we think when he jets off home to SA. Oh yeah his home, where he dreamed of playing rugby for as a child until he became a plastic paddy.

Greed, that's all it is. All countries have this happen though and nearly every rugby fan I speak to dislike it.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Yes and if you read it you will see he stated it wasn't financial. And more so was on discussions had.
Yes he signed in June as all players usually do a few months before hand. And arrived in October. Like I am still lost here. CJ has been clear from day 1 in his story and it seems to be logical and fair.
Like you are making claims now they waited until they seen had he 2nd year syndrome. Maybe the Bulls felt they couldn't match but there no mention they offered a deal. In fact it says "
However, it may be that the Bulls' preference for their own loose trio of Pierre Spies, Dewald Potgieter and Deon Stegmann, coupled with the arrival of Jacques Potgieter and the up-and-coming former SA under-20 captain Arno Botha, may have something to do with the decision.

The Bulls also have current SA under-20 captain Wian Liebenberg and IRB Junior World Cup Player of the Year nominee Shaun Adendorff."

So maybe Bulls felt the same as Mayer and that he wasn't good enough as a backrower and would only offer a deal if he moved to hooker.

To suggest now that the timing should have meant CJ waited to hear is BS too. If SA Rugby and Bulls wanted him then they'd at least have made an offer. And if the point you are making is true then I'd be more worried for the poor poor business model.

I still see huge holes like:
1. Where is proof he was offered a deal as backrower to dispute what CJ said?
2. What did IRFU/Ireland do wrong. They never snatched any young guy.
3. If you were told unless you change you're going nowhere what would you have done?
4. If SA rated him so highly why didn't they cap him. Knowing well he would not have been allowed stay in Ireland then also as he'd be an NIQ player. Again if this is not known in SA then I'd seriously question SARU.

In fact the more I hear stories from Rassie when he was here, Jacques also and others SARU seems to be winging it.

That amongst so so many other items seems to leave many many holes.

Just to respond on your 4 holes you mention:
1. Read the article a bit more:

"The Chief Executive Officer of the Blue Bulls Company, Barend van Graan, said that they were unable to match the current offer on the table from the Irish club.

"We identified CJ at schoolboy level already and he was part of our future planning at the Bulls. However we couldn't match the Munster offer – such is the reality of professional sport."

Vodacom Bulls coach, Frans Ludeke, wished Stander well in his decision;

"Quality players like CJ, who have also shown tremendous leadership abilities, don't come around very often and so it was not a surprise to hear about his overseas offer. We would have loved to have had him with us well into the future, but it makes financial sense for CJ to accept the Munster offer.

"I have no doubt that CJ will continue to give everything he has throughout the remainder of our Vodacom Super Rugby campaign as well as our Absa Currie Cup season."

So the CEO said they were unable to match the offer from Munster, and the head coach wanted him to stay. Clearly there were discussions with CJ and his future with the Bulls.

2. Sure, give IRFU/Ireland the benefit of the doubt, project players by UK based nations is not something that actively happens to help them boost their stocks. It doesn't happen at all...

3. As stated before, coaches always tend to make suggestions to players and improve their game. South Africa has a history of making those suggestions to players, and most of the time, it worked out quite well. Beast from no. 8 to prop, Pierre Spies from winger to no. 8, Bryan Habana from scrumhalf to winger.

Also a lot of players are told that due to their size they might not become a springbok. Have you watched Chasing the Sun yet?? Watch the part about Cheslin Kolbe, and how he was told he's too small, but he made the decision to embrace the challenge and prove them wrong. It's a very strong motivator if you ask me. And if you know South African mentality, that's the typical statement to make, to fire up a guy.

But perhaps at that point in CJ's life, he wasn't maybe as mentally tough as he is now, and he took the criticism negatively and rather decided to take an out, that try and fight.

4. As stated before, look at the list of already capped Springboks backrowers that played in 2012. Pierre Spies, Dewald Potgieter and Deon Stegmann were all also springboks and playing at the Bulls. Potgieter, Stegmann and Liebenberg also subsequently left the Bulls in 2013-2016 to play for more money in Japan and the UK. Liebenberg left in 2013 by the way, and wasn't considered in the running to join the bok camp at any stage prior to his departure for France.

I honestly don't know what else could the Bulls and SA Rugby have done to please CJ. The Bulls tried there best while also being in financial difficulties to negotiate renewal. The Springboks invited him to travel with them on a EOYT, which is a very high honour for a young player that not a lot of guys can say they've had the privilege as a 21-year old. He was becoming a household name, he won many bulls fans over (including myself) with his introduction to Super Rugby in his first season as a full-time pro rugby player. And then he just left...

I get that you and I will never agree about this, it's clear your personal relationship with him has made up your mind on this matter, but from my point of view, SA Rugby also didn't do anything wrong, so stop making us look like the bad guys here.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Just to respond on your 4 holes you mention:
1. Read the article a bit more:

So the CEO said they were unable to match the offer from Munster, and the head coach wanted him to stay. Clearly there were discussions with CJ and his future with the Bulls.

2. Sure, give IRFU/Ireland the benefit of the doubt, project players by UK based nations is not something that actively happens to help them boost their stocks. It doesn't happen at all...

3. As stated before, coaches always tend to make suggestions to players and improve their game. South Africa has a history of making those suggestions to players, and most of the time, it worked out quite well. Beast from no. 8 to prop, Pierre Spies from winger to no. 8, Bryan Habana from scrumhalf to winger.

Also a lot of players are told that due to their size they might not become a springbok. Have you watched Chasing the Sun yet?? Watch the part about Cheslin Kolbe, and how he was told he's too small, but he made the decision to embrace the challenge and prove them wrong. It's a very strong motivator if you ask me. And if you know South African mentality, that's the typical statement to make, to fire up a guy.

But perhaps at that point in CJ's life, he wasn't maybe as mentally tough as he is now, and he took the criticism negatively and rather decided to take an out, that try and fight.

4. As stated before, look at the list of already capped Springboks backrowers that played in 2012. Pierre Spies, Dewald Potgieter and Deon Stegmann were all also springboks and playing at the Bulls. Potgieter, Stegmann and Liebenberg also subsequently left the Bulls in 2013-2016 to play for more money in Japan and the UK. Liebenberg left in 2013 by the way, and wasn't considered in the running to join the bok camp at any stage prior to his departure for France.

I honestly don't know what else could the Bulls and SA Rugby have done to please CJ. The Bulls tried there best while also being in financial difficulties to negotiate renewal. The Springboks invited him to travel with them on a EOYT, which is a very high honour for a young player that not a lot of guys can say they've had the privilege as a 21-year old. He was becoming a household name, he won many bulls fans over (including myself) with his introduction to Super Rugby in his first season as a full-time pro rugby player. And then he just left...

I get that you and I will never agree about this, it's clear your personal relationship with him has made up your mind on this matter, but from my point of view, SA Rugby also didn't do anything wrong, so stop making us look like the bad guys here.

We're not in the UK...

 

[munstermuffin]

Just to respond on your 4 holes you mention:
1. Read the article a bit more:

So the CEO said they were unable to match the offer from Munster, and the head coach wanted him to stay. Clearly there were discussions with CJ and his future with the Bulls.

2. Sure, give IRFU/Ireland the benefit of the doubt, project players by UK based nations is not something that actively happens to help them boost their stocks. It doesn't happen at all...

3. As stated before, coaches always tend to make suggestions to players and improve their game. South Africa has a history of making those suggestions to players, and most of the time, it worked out quite well. Beast from no. 8 to prop, Pierre Spies from winger to no. 8, Bryan Habana from scrumhalf to winger.

Also a lot of players are told that due to their size they might not become a springbok. Have you watched Chasing the Sun yet?? Watch the part about Cheslin Kolbe, and how he was told he's too small, but he made the decision to embrace the challenge and prove them wrong. It's a very strong motivator if you ask me. And if you know South African mentality, that's the typical statement to make, to fire up a guy.

But perhaps at that point in CJ's life, he wasn't maybe as mentally tough as he is now, and he took the criticism negatively and rather decided to take an out, that try and fight.

4. As stated before, look at the list of already capped Springboks backrowers that played in 2012. Pierre Spies, Dewald Potgieter and Deon Stegmann were all also springboks and playing at the Bulls. Potgieter, Stegmann and Liebenberg also subsequently left the Bulls in 2013-2016 to play for more money in Japan and the UK. Liebenberg left in 2013 by the way, and wasn't considered in the running to join the bok camp at any stage prior to his departure for France.

I honestly don't know what else could the Bulls and SA Rugby have done to please CJ. The Bulls tried there best while also being in financial difficulties to negotiate renewal. The Springboks invited him to travel with them on a EOYT, which is a very high honour for a young player that not a lot of guys can say they've had the privilege as a 21-year old. He was becoming a household name, he won many bulls fans over (including myself) with his introduction to Super Rugby in his first season as a full-time pro rugby player. And then he just left...

I get that you and I will never agree about this, it's clear your personal relationship with him has made up your mind on this matter, but from my point of view, SA Rugby also didn't do anything wrong, so stop making us look like the bad guys here.

So I will address these:

1. So CEO is saying No Contract was offered. They presumed they couldn't match deal but CJ has stated he was not wanted as a backrower. So CEO may have been spinning it slightly but well he was not offered any deal as a backrower. Maybe a deal as a hooker.

2. As stated by @The Alpha Bro Ireland is not in UK so not sure what happens but again you are so misinformed. The IRFU/Ireland have targeted Project Guys 100%. But in troublesome positions like THP back when it was just John Hayes etc.
Backrow has always been Irelands strongest depth. As much as I love CJ I would say about any Irish backrower that there will always be another that would step up.

Regardless the facts on CJ are: Shaun Payne heard all about his rumblings. Contacted the late great Anxel Foley. He then had Garret Fitz (RIP) and the Munster board look in to it. Then the signing was made.
CJ scored great try on 1st game but struggled to even make team here. Was 99% signed for London Irish after 2 years. Only coach that seemed to fully fully back him was Axel. Hence the closeness of the 2 and devastation when he died.

3. I'm not say SA coaches were wrong or they don't advise. More what was said. His mentality we can have different views on and neither know exactly who was right but I revert to point 1.

4. I never said SA did anything wrong. As you correctly stated he had plenty of competition. And they made a call to CJ that he did not agree with. I'm not disputing that. Like nobody is saying SA were wrong. More they made a call and CJ was 1 that they let slip through the net.

 

[TRF_heineken]

So I will address these:

1. So CEO is saying No Contract was offered. They presumed they couldn't match deal but CJ has stated he was not wanted as a backrower. So CEO may have been spinning it slightly but well he was not offered any deal as a backrower. Maybe a deal as a hooker.

2. As stated by @The Alpha Bro Ireland is not in UK so not sure what happens but again you are so misinformed. The IRFU/Ireland have targeted Project Guys 100%. But in troublesome positions like THP back when it was just John Hayes etc.
Backrow has always been Irelands strongest depth. As much as I love CJ I would say about any Irish backrower that there will always be another that would step up.

Regardless the facts on CJ are: Shaun Payne heard all about his rumblings. Contacted the late great Anxel Foley. He then had Garret Fitz (RIP) and the Munster board look in to it. Then the signing was made.
CJ scored great try on 1st game but struggled to even make team here. Was 99% signed for London Irish after 2 years. Only coach that seemed to fully fully back him was Axel. Hence the closeness of the 2 and devastation when he died.

3. I'm not say SA coaches were wrong or they don't advise. More what was said. His mentality we can have different views on and neither know exactly who was right but I revert to point 1.

4. I never said SA did anything wrong. As you correctly stated he had plenty of competition. And they made a call to CJ that he did not agree with. I'm not disputing that. Like nobody is saying SA were wrong. More they made a call and CJ was 1 that they let slip through the net.

You can spin it all you want, there was discussions/negotiations/talks between his employer and CJ at the time he signed for Munster. We will never know what was said behind closed doors, and it wasn't CJ himself that said it wasn't for financial reasons, it was his agent, and they always try and spin it to the advantage of their client. A player isn't contracted for a specified position per se, so perhaps there were talks in having CJ have a try-out at hooker while still being a backrower, something in the same line like the Stormers did with Deon Fourie, who was a flanker, and then converted to hooker.

You both know what I meant by UK, it was more aimed at NH teams north of the english channel, or Should I have named the 4 home nations individually. Project players are synonymous with them. You can even add France and Italy here. But the SH doesn't have that policy, and we don't actively scout in other countries for players. Or hope that there is some residency loophole or some long lost granny from long ago who might have a link to them. That old chestnut...

Sure CJ might have had a bad beginning in Munster, it was after all his second year in pro rugby, plus a new country and a new environment. It was kind of expected...

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

You both know what I meant by UK, it was more aimed at NH teams north of the english channel, or Should I have named the 4 home nations individually.

Apologies for not being happy with my country being grouped together with another one that has oppressed it and committed genocide here... It's really ignorant to do that man, Europe, NH, UK&I are all far better alternatives.

 

[munstermuffin]

You can spin it all you want, there was discussions/negotiations/talks between his employer and CJ at the time he signed for Munster. We will never know what was said behind closed doors, and it wasn't CJ himself that said it wasn't for financial reasons, it was his agent, and they always try and spin it to the advantage of their client. A player isn't contracted for a specified position per se, so perhaps there were talks in having CJ have a try-out at hooker while still being a backrower, something in the same line like the Stormers did with Deon Fourie, who was a flanker, and then converted to hooker.

You both know what I meant by UK, it was more aimed at NH teams north of the english channel, or Should I have named the 4 home nations individually. Project players are synonymous with them. You can even add France and Italy here. But the SH doesn't have that policy, and we don't actively scout in other countries for players. Or hope that there is some residency loophole or some long lost granny from long ago who might have a link to them. That old chestnut...

Sure CJ might have had a bad beginning in Munster, it was after all his second year in pro rugby, plus a new country and a new environment. It was kind of expected...

No a player isn't signed to a certain position but I'm sure it was probably mentioned "Oh we want you to convert etc". CJ has came out plenty of times saying it wasn't for financial reasons. And I'm only relaying what CJ has stated privately and publicly.
I sure maybe there was talks but talks will not always lead to a deal being offered. Was the discussions that oh you need to convert to hooker to be offered a deal at this rate? And then were caught by Munster offer.

On residency - I'm not denying that IRFU look at project player etc. I'll even give you Keynan Knox as an example of guy that was mentioned for a troublesome position. But CJ was all our own intel without IRFU. Shaun Payne was the man to identify it all as I said. A Munster legend and South African who helps with scouting I suppose.

But on CJ in Munster it had nothing to do with new country etc. South Africans seem to love Munster and settle fast. It was issues like is he too small, is he up to it. He was poor in form. Struggled with the demands. And in some areas felt unfairly picked on by coaches. But he didn't take easy way out (could have trebled money in London Irish at time and same years later with Montpellier, when established) he played his A games etc.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

FYI hypocrisy is clear you slam CJ yet ok The Beast.

One changed jersey's, the other did not. One represented the team he dreamed about as a kid. The other did not.
Sugarcoat it the way you want.

Add the fact that i said i wouldn't encourage it, but i would tolerate it for practical reasons. There is one hypocrite here, but it ain't me.

 

[munstermuffin]

One changed jersey's, the other did not. One represented the team he dreamed about as a kid. The other did not.
Sugarcoat it the way you want.

Add the fact that i said i wouldn't encourage it, but i would tolerate it for practical reasons. There is one hypocrite here, but it ain't me.

As I said if you think that way fair enough. Also facts are both changed jerseys. And one never had much dreams of rugby as a kid. They facts but as I said we all understand hypocrisy in different ways. I see it as 1 rule is ok for 1 person but not the other. Which seems to be your way of judging. I don't need to stoop to the poor behaviour of insult. Have good weekend.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Also facts are both changed jerseys.

Let's talk facts, i'm in.
Let's see the evidence you have of Beast representing a nation other than South Africa. Any sport, any age group. If he represented Zimbabwe (or any other country) at origami in 3rd grade, I'll concede. That's the difference between you and me. My position is simple: it is based on a principle, which i presented clearly, and then look at the evidence. If the actions (evidence) fit that principle, I'm in, otherwise, I'm against. It doesn't matter who does it. If a Uruguayan born and raised player ends up playing for the pumas i would and will say the same. I don't like it.
My argument is based on principle. Yours appears to be based on convenience.

But i am open to being proved wrong. Let's see those facts you speak of.
When, where and regarding what, exactly, did Beast wore a jersey representing another country.

Cant wait. I will stand corrected when i see those facts you speak of.

They facts but as I said we all understand hypocrisy in different ways.

I don't envy that moral relativism of yours.