CJ Stander to retire at the end of the season

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

It's a job though, not a vocation.

Would you say the same about a kid who dreamed of being a judge in SA and ended up becoming one in Ireland?

That's different, a judge is not supposed to represent sports for a nation. A better analogy would be joining the military of another country, but then that has other issues.

I guess you either view nationality as something important to international rugby's integrity or you don't.

If you don't I'll never understand you.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

That's different, a judge is not supposed to represent sports for a nation. A better analogy would be joining the military of another country, but then that has other issues.

I guess you either view nationality as something important to international rugby's integrity or you don't.

If you don't I'll never understand you.

A judge fulfills a far more important duty for a nation than both a sportsperson or an individual in the military imo.

I do think nationality is important and I've said I don't think CJ should have played until 2018 (or Lowe until 2023) but at that stage they'll be Irish citizens which is definitely enough. And I don't think nationality should stop lads making the most of a career that they probably already don't make enough money factoring in the problems they'll have in later life already.

FWIW CJ playing for the u20s in SA should have tried him to them too.

Ultimately though CJ ended up making international rugby a higher quality and more entertaining.

I'm not going to claim that CJ wanted to play for Ireland when he was a kid, or even on his debut but since 2018 he has literally been Irish, no problems there for me.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It's a job though, not a vocation.

Club rugby is, international rugby shouldn't be

I realise that it's been twisted so that it now is, but it shouldn't be - do away with match fees etc.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Club rugby is, international rugby shouldn't be

I realise that it's been twisted so that it now is, but it shouldn't be - do away with match fees etc.

And go the way of international soccer where if you're not from England, Germany, France, Argentina or Brazil you've little enough incentive to play and retiring from international football years before they do for their club?

i reckon rugby as it is has more identity due to fans being in far closer than their football counterparts to their club and international teams. Not incentivising international rugby will only kill the quality massively and see far more movement from players between clubs, neither of which I want to see.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

And go the way of international soccer where if you're not from England, Germany, France, Argentina or Brazil you've little enough incentive to play and retiring from international football years before they do for their club?

If that's what happens then that's what happens

Obv just my opinion, but I don't like what it's become/increasingly becoming

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Why did you cut off just before starting to pray to me bro?

Lost for words, of course.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

But at the time he did not sign for Ireland. IRFU had no interest in him. He signed for Munster. Recruited by Munster. Solely for Munster,

No SA Club wanted him as a backrow player. Nobody said he was a Saint. More defending him being called a traitor and someone who chased money. Up to today he has never been a top paid player on IRFU books.
And yes I never once said about him being all Irish BUT he holds an Irish passport and well based my views on seeing what he did off the field away for rugby in the community. Selfless with his time, polite to all he met and improved many peoples lives by helping in various days. Even now does so much unseen for mental health services.

Is there a single non-Irish person in this thread that believe the idea of playing for Ireland wasn't part of the plan? Not a certainty, course, but that he knew it was a possibility?

And no club in SA wanted him? Wtf u talking about? Maybe some couldn't offer the same money Munster did, but that's a completely different argument.

More defending him being called a traitor and someone who chased money.

You've been defending him way before Heineken called him a traitor and he DID chase the money.

And yes I never once said about him being all Irish BUT he holds an Irish passport and well based my views on seeing what he did off the field away for rugby in the community. Selfless with his time, polite to all he met and improved many peoples lives by helping in various days. Even now does so much unseen for mental health services.

That is, precisely, what people are arguing against. You think giving him a passport and taking a few pictures of a player doing some charity work is enough. Some of us do not. The rules allowed him to get away with it. But the rules also allow us to voice our mind and call a spade a spade.

It's a job though, not a vocation.

Would you say the same about a kid who dreamed of being a judge in SA and ended up becoming one in Ireland?

That is a bs comparison and you know it. Judges don't compete against judges from other jurisdiction representing their country.

Ultimately though CJ ended up making international rugby a higher quality and more entertaining.

That's your opinion, hardly a fact. And following that logic let's strip all tier 2 nations from their best players and give them to tier 1 teams, so rugby games between them end up being of higher quality and more entertaining.

And go the way of international soccer where if you're not from England, Germany, France, Argentina or Brazil you've little enough incentive to play and retiring from international football years before they do for their club?

That is a **** poor example. Argentina and England haven't won **** in decades. Till not that long ago, neither had Spain. Uruguay and Chile have won more and done better in international competitions than most without poaching players.

Do you think a Uruguayan would play for England instead of his own national team just because of the money? A Paraguayan? They'd chop of a hand before they do that. Look at Argentina's and Uruguay's national teams in any big team sport. Footie, rugby, basket, hockey, volley. See how many poached players we've got. 1-2 who were born away while they parents were working abroad, that's it. They are all Argentines since birth, speak the language since the cradle and could recite the verses of the national anthem since they were 5-6 (that's when we learn it).

We obviously want different things. You want the best team your rugby federation can afford. That's it. I do not. And it's ok to want different things. The rules allow you to do that. Not CJ's nor IRFU's fault.
Now, understand how some of us laugh when we see a player who dreamed to play for South Africa as a kid, and wants his children to be raised there sings the Irish national anthem and is praised for his devotion to Ireland because he learned English and did 10 hours of community work in front of the press.

 

[munstermuffin]

Is there a single non-Irish person in this thread that believe the idea of playing for Ireland wasn't part of the plan? Not a certainty, course, but that he knew it was a possibility?

And no club in SA wanted him? Wtf u talking about? Maybe some couldn't offer the same money Munster did, but that's a completely different argument.


You've been defending him way before Heineken called him a traitor and he DID chase the money.


That is, precisely, what people are arguing against. You think giving him a passport and taking a few pictures of a player doing some charity work is enough. Some of us do not. The rules allowed him to get away with it. But the rules also allow us to voice our mind and call a spade a spade.


That is a bs comparison and you know it. Judges don't compete against judges from other jurisdiction representing their country.


That's your opinion, hardly a fact. And following that logic let's strip all tier 2 nations from their best players and give them to tier 1 teams, so rugby games between them end up being of higher quality and more entertaining.


That is a **** poor example. Argentina and England haven't won **** in decades. Till not that long ago, neither had Spain. Uruguay and Chile have won more and done better in international competitions than most without poaching players.

Do you think a Uruguayan would play for England instead of his own national team just because of the money? A Paraguayan? They'd chop of a hand before they do that. Look at Argentina's and Uruguay's national teams in any big team sport. Footie, rugby, basket, hockey, volley. See how many poached players we've got. 1-2 who were born away while they parents were working abroad, that's it. They are all Argentines since birth, speak the language since the cradle and could recite the verses of the national anthem since they were 5-6 (that's when we learn it).

We obviously want different things. You want the best team your rugby federation can afford. That's it. I do not. And it's ok to want different things. The rules allow you to do that. Not CJ's nor IRFU's fault.
Now, understand how some of us laugh when we see a player who dreamed to play for South Africa as a kid, and wants his children to be raised there sings the Irish national anthem and is praised for his devotion to Ireland because he learned English and did 10 hours of community work in front of the press.

On the contrary - Can you tell me what club in SA offered him a role as a backrow player? Stormers didn't, Sharks didn't, Cheetahs didn't
Also IRFU never even knew of him. Shaun Payne recommended him to Munster upon hearing initial unrest. He was on very poor money for first few years and couldn't even get his own place.
Also you seem to say he chased the money. In what way? Like he was never on huge money. Only ever had 1 IRFU contract and Munster never broke bank for him.

So effectively are you saying the Beast shouldn't play with South Africa? As he was younger but left for Financial and Education reasons?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

That is a bs comparison and you know it. Judges don't compete against judges from other jurisdiction representing their country.

It's really really not. Judges decisions are heavily scrutinized in and out of their jurisdictions, judiciaries are ranked worldwide and this will be considered when businesses are incorporating in a country. A judge is responsible for the rights and wellbeing of citizens and most take pay cuts to become a one in the first place. It's far, far more patriotic and important than playing a sport.

That's your opinion, hardly a fact. And following that logic let's strip all tier 2 nations from their best players and give them to tier 1 teams, so rugby games between them end up being of higher quality and more entertaining.

I'm clearly not suggesting that, if Stander was T2 he'd have been picked while playing for Munster.

is a **** poor example. Argentina and England haven't won **** in decades. Till not that long ago, neither had Spain. Uruguay and Chile have won more and done better in international competitions than most without poaching players.

Again it's really not, look at Ryan Giggs and Stephen Ireland, they refused to play for their countries throughout their careers to protect their club careers. Declan Rice played for Ireland, shouted "up the Ra" at parties and is now playing for England because of the extra sponsorship, opportunities etc... he'll get. Diego Costa choosing Spain because he's a bigger name there than Brazil is another example of how diluted the international soccer game is.

Do you think a Uruguayan would play for England instead of his own national team just because of the money? A Paraguayan? They'd chop of a hand before they do that. Look at Argentina's and Uruguay's national teams in any big team sport. Footie, rugby, basket, hockey, volley. See how many poached players we've got. 1-2 who were born away while they parents were working abroad, that's it. They are all Argentines since birth, speak the language since the cradle and could recite the verses of the national anthem since they were 5-6 (that's when we learn it).

Do Martin Castrogiovanni and Diego Dominguez just not exist? If you could give me examples of players qualifying through residency and being good enough to play for Argentina and not being picked I'd believe you but let's be honest this doesn't happen because the players good enough for international football move to Europe or have already been picked by their home nation while playing in the Argentinian or Brazilian leagues before qualifying.
This just reads to me like "We're so great because we don't do it, we're better than them... Yeah, we literally don't have the opportunity to do it but we wouldn't if we did, also ignore those players that did it, we don't talk about them".

We obviously want different things. You want the best team your rugby federation can afford. That's it. I do not. And it's ok to want different things. The rules allow you to do that. Not CJ's nor IRFU's fault.
Now, understand how some of us laugh when we see a player who dreamed to play for South Africa as a kid, and wants his children to be raised there sings the Irish national anthem and is praised for his devotion to Ireland because he learned English and did 10 hours of community work in front of the press.

I just want to watch good rugby and have reasonable rules, which I think are mostly in place bar the 20s not committing you to a nation. They weren't for the start of CJ's career but for more than half of his caps it was literally an Irishman playing for Ireland.

Currently James Lowe has five caps, he has said how he thinks it's ridiculous he's playing for Ireland and I agree with him.


Edit: it's clear anyway we just don't agree here. I just don't rate sport as the height of patriotism, far from it. I think I have a pretty realistic view of things but understand that people will probably think it's a very money first and individualistic view, it definitely is to a degree but not to the point that I'm holding Sportspeople to a lower standard than anyone else.

 

[will311293]

TBH at the end of the day, playing rugby for your country is always a privilege but it's also a financial deal. Players will go abroad to different clubs to get a better financial packet and same with international. Players have a shortened window of opportunity and could be broken within one game/training session (Eg. Sam Jones whose career was ended in one England training session). If one country offers you 7k a game and the other offers you 17k a game, realistically some players will take the other country. I'm sure that if you asked the pacific islanders (piatau, halai, fekitoa etc) they would have loved to play for their heritage nation but NZ pays better and it will financially benefit their families.

Personally if i was in Stander's position and i wasn't getting the contract i wanted in SA and Munster offered a good contract plus the chance of International rugby and the financial reward of International Rugby, I'm going to Ireland.

Rugby is a business for players, both club and international... so they treat it like that sometimes and who can blame them.

 

[TRF_heineken]

On the contrary - Can you tell me what club in SA offered him a role as a backrow player? Stormers didn't, Sharks didn't, Cheetahs didn't
Also IRFU never even knew of him. Shaun Payne recommended him to Munster upon hearing initial unrest. He was on very poor money for first few years and couldn't even get his own place.
Also you seem to say he chased the money. In what way? Like he was never on huge money. Only ever had 1 IRFU contract and Munster never broke bank for him.

So effectively are you saying the Beast shouldn't play with South Africa? As he was younger but left for Financial and Education reasons?

Why would another team offer him a contract when he was still under contract with the Bulls. In fact, he signed with Munster while still under contract with the Bulls, and after confirming that he's heading to Ireland, he played at least 10 games for the Bulls thereafter.

It was 2012, and the first season he played Super Rugby. Prior to that he played Vodacom Cup (which is basically the semi-pro leg of the clubs in SA), and Currie Cup. I don't think many players get a decent salary when playing Vodacom Cup, as most of them are usually still at university, and under a scholarship programme and they stay in the hostels or university homes. CJ was a student at University of Pretoria (TUKS), and the University is right next to Loftus Versfeld. There really was no need to get his own place, unless he had personal issues with other students or team mates.

The contract he signed with Munster, was always going to be a lot more money than what he was getting in SA, based purely on the currency and exchange rate.

The point is, he was a prospect, and his career as a South African player was just starting, he was 22 FFS! there isn't a lot of players that make their international debut at that age. He was a project player, just like Quinn Roux, Bundee Aki and some others. CJ was however poised for bigger things in SA, but instead opted to go another route.

Oh, just another thing, when he went to Munster, he wasn't married yet, that only happened afterwards, and he married Ryk Neethling's sister. So perhaps CJ felt a bit inferior when it came to family gatherings where Neethling was able to show his Olympic Gold Medal he won for South Africa at the 2004 Olympic Games?

Again, the issue isn't with Munster, or any other foreign Club signing players from SA, we are used to the mass exodus of players. I see CJ's betrayal of Country in the same view as Clyde Rathbone and Australia. I am a patriot, and I despise the way Northern Hemisphere countries are manipulating the system in snatching young prospects in the hope of improving their own stocks for international duty.

CJ could have had a long illustrious career as a Munster player, and still represented SA. He chose to close that door, for the reason being he was too small. So he bulked up, did exactly what the SA camps wanted from him, and then he went on to play for Ireland. Guess that excuse is more original than the one of Quotas like Kevin Pietersen...

 

[munstermuffin]

Why would another team offer him a contract when he was still under contract with the Bulls. In fact, he signed with Munster while still under contract with the Bulls, and after confirming that he's heading to Ireland, he played at least 10 games for the Bulls thereafter.

It was 2012, and the first season he played Super Rugby. Prior to that he played Vodacom Cup (which is basically the semi-pro leg of the clubs in SA), and Currie Cup. I don't think many players get a decent salary when playing Vodacom Cup, as most of them are usually still at university, and under a scholarship programme and they stay in the hostels or university homes. CJ was a student at University of Pretoria (TUKS), and the University is right next to Loftus Versfeld. There really was no need to get his own place, unless he had personal issues with other students or team mates.

The contract he signed with Munster, was always going to be a lot more money than what he was getting in SA, based purely on the currency and exchange rate.

The point is, he was a prospect, and his career as a South African player was just starting, he was 22 FFS! there isn't a lot of players that make their international debut at that age. He was a project player, just like Quinn Roux, Bundee Aki and some others. CJ was however poised for bigger things in SA, but instead opted to go another route.

Oh, just another thing, when he went to Munster, he wasn't married yet, that only happened afterwards, and he married Ryk Neethling's sister. So perhaps CJ felt a bit inferior when it came to family gatherings where Neethling was able to show his Olympic Gold Medal he won for South Africa at the 2004 Olympic Games?

Again, the issue isn't with Munster, or any other foreign Club signing players from SA, we are used to the mass exodus of players. I see CJ's betrayal of Country in the same view as Clyde Rathbone and Australia. I am a patriot, and I despise the way Northern Hemisphere countries are manipulating the system in snatching young prospects in the hope of improving their own stocks for international duty.

CJ could have had a long illustrious career as a Munster player, and still represented SA. He chose to close that door, for the reason being he was too small. So he bulked up, did exactly what the SA camps wanted from him, and then he went on to play for Ireland. Guess that excuse is more original than the one of Quotas like Kevin Pietersen...

Yes but he was no different to any other contract. He never broke any contract. Every players signs with a new team when technically under contract. Why didn't anyone is SA offer him a deal? This is a fact by the way.

On coming to Munster - He was nowhere near good money and not on great terms. I meant he couldn't even have his own place here in Limerick at start as he was unsure he could fully afford it.
I'd disagree. On the Aki, CJ and Quinn Roux comparisons.
CJ came solely as he wanted to play backrow and no South African team offered him a deal for this. So you say he was destined for big things but he was offered no deal to match this. And if SA wanted him so bad they could of capped him for 1 min on tour or something and tied him in. He never refused. He wasn't signed with view for Ireland. IRFU knew nothing about him. I was there in flesh to back up that conversation. It was Munster alone who got deal wrong.
Aki came to Connacht due to friendship with Pat Lam and issues back home. His family still live in NZ and he has openly spoke that playing with Ireland is a financial reason and nothing more.

On the next comment I think that a bit of a **** poor comment. He was engaged before he came and married Jean-Marie the following summer. Not sure what comment with Olympic Medal is? Like Ryk has came to Thomond Park and is a nice guy. But if you measure a person by Medals and all that well that shows the arrogance. Oscar Pistorius is one of South Africas most famous successful Olympians and well would you say he's inferior.

Like again it is funny you put all the blame on CJ and say he is the person who betrayed etc. But I am still lost.

1. What did IRFU/Ireland do wrong. They never snatched any young guy.
2. CJ was offered no contract as a backrow. What should he have done?
3. If you were told unless you change you're going nowhere what would you have done?
4. If SA rated him so highly why didn't they cap him.

And shows how much you have followed CJ. His stats haven't actually changed much from when he arrived to leaving here. So naturally rugby guys bulk up in gym but he is not massively bulked. He is slimmer now than his 1st season here.
So like why didn't SA cap him. He never closed any door when coming to Limerick. Why couldn't he be called to join Ruan Pienaar on a flight to SA camp.

 

[Groundhog]

Oh, just another thing, when he went to Munster, he wasn't married yet, that only happened afterwards, and he married Ryk Neethling's sister. So perhaps CJ felt a bit inferior when it came to family gatherings where Neethling was able to show his Olympic Gold Medal he won for South Africa at the 2004 Olympic Games?

Aaaand here's where me bothering to even engage with this ends. I implore you to get a grip. Talk about someone living rent free in your head

 

[munstermuffin]

Aaaand here's where me bothering to even engage with this ends. I implore you to get a grip. Talk about someone living rent free in your head

I would add in (and I'm not a big swimming fan) I never heard of Ryk before CJ. And even now know him as a relation of CJ.

Only handful Olympic Swimmers I know:
- Rebecca Adlington
- Michele Smith
- Ian Thorpe
- The American lad who won loads of medal
- And the lad from some African jungle who never swam in a pool before his 1st heat (it was all Lakes) and was very very slow but embodied the spirit of the Olympics.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I would add in (and I'm not a big swimming fan) I never heard of Ryk before CJ. And even now know him as a relation of CJ.

Only handful Olympic Swimmers I know:
- Rebecca Adlington
- Michele Smith
- Ian Thorpe
- The American lad who won loads of medal
- And the lad from some African jungle who never swam in a pool before his 1st heat (it was all Lakes) and was very very slow but embodied the spirit of the Olympics.

Naming Rebecca Adlington but calling Michael Phelps "the American lad"

 

[TRF_heineken]

Yes but he was no different to any other contract. He never broke any contract. Every players signs with a new team when technically under contract. Why didn't anyone is SA offer him a deal? This is a fact by the way.

Like again it is funny you put all the blame on CJ and say he is the person who betrayed etc. But I am still lost.

1. What did IRFU/Ireland do wrong. They never snatched any young guy.
2. CJ was offered no contract as a backrow. What should he have done?
3. If you were told unless you change you're going nowhere what would you have done?
4. If SA rated him so highly why didn't they cap him.

You keep on saying no other contract was offered. But I will again ask, why would another contract be offered to him, when he was still under contract with the Bulls. And it was his first year in the senior squad, with a fresh agreement. Unless CJ personally approached them, and asked them if they would sign him.

Plus, have a look at the backrowers of SA that played in 2012:
Duane Vermeulen (who made his debut in 2012)
Pierre Spies
Schalk Burger (Another SA Flanker that won World Player of Year in 2004)
Willem Alberts
Marcell Coetzee
Francois Louw
Heinrich Brussouw
Juan Smith
Ryan Kankowski
Arno Botha

All of these guys, except for Duane Vermeulen was already capped Springboks! The competition at flanker in South Africa is immense!! Also note, that not a single guy on this list is a player of colour, which negates the issue of quota players getting the nod before him... Siya Kolisi was in the running, but he was injured at that time. All these players were well known and top class players. It would have taken an exceptional youngster to be selected above these players.

2012 was also the first year Heyneke Meyer became coach of the Sprinboks, taking over from PDV. Also, there was a limitation on the amount of players allowed to be selected from abroad.

Only Ruan Pienaar and Francois Louw were selected for the RC that wasn't based in SA.

On coming to Munster - He was nowhere near good money and not on great terms. I meant he couldn't even have his own place here in Limerick at start as he was unsure he could fully afford it.
I'd disagree. On the Aki, CJ and Quinn Roux comparisons.
CJ came solely as he wanted to play backrow and no South African team offered him a deal for this. So you say he was destined for big things but he was offered no deal to match this. And if SA wanted him so bad they could of capped him for 1 min on tour or something and tied him in. He never refused. He wasn't signed with view for Ireland. IRFU knew nothing about him. I was there in flesh to back up that conversation. It was Munster alone who got deal wrong.
Aki came to Connacht due to friendship with Pat Lam and issues back home. His family still live in NZ and he has openly spoke that playing with Ireland is a financial reason and nothing more.

On the next comment I think that a bit of a **** poor comment. He was engaged before he came and married Jean-Marie the following summer. Not sure what comment with Olympic Medal is? Like Ryk has came to Thomond Park and is a nice guy. But if you measure a person by Medals and all that well that shows the arrogance. Oscar Pistorius is one of South Africas most famous successful Olympians and well would you say he's inferior.


And shows how much you have followed CJ. His stats haven't actually changed much from when he arrived to leaving here. So naturally rugby guys bulk up in gym but he is not massively bulked. He is slimmer now than his 1st season here.
So like why didn't SA cap him. He never closed any door when coming to Limerick. Why couldn't he be called to join Ruan Pienaar on a flight to SA camp.

The fact that you didn't know who Ryk Neethling was, or that he was part of the 4 swimmers that won a gold olympic medal in swimming, just shows how little you know about SA sport. They are legends in SA. Ryk Neethling and Roland Schoeman have a massive following.

Ryk Neethling is now even in charge of fellow swimmer, and now princess of Monaco's charity fund.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

 

[Groundhog]

View attachment 10247

Delete this now

 

[munstermuffin]

Naming Rebecca Adlington but calling Michael Phelps "the American lad"

LOL as I said it not my strong point and well I know Rebecca from obviously she'd get more media around UK&I although am I correct in saying she retired now?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

LOL as I said it not my strong point and well I know Rebecca from obviously she'd get more media around UK&I although am I correct in saying she retired now?

Your guess is as good as mine, I don't think anyone follows swimming other than when it's on the TV for the olympics