CJ Stander to retire at the end of the season

[MikeTheNative]

He grew up dreaming of playing for SA, moved to Ireland, played for Ireland and then moved back home to SA. That's all I see, there's lots of 'English' players that have done this as well which equally annoy me.

In my head it's greed for international rugby and money with a lack of integrity.

As I've asked before to many on here, would you play for another country? I'd rather not play at all than represent a different county.

It's not a question you simply answer with your heart. Pro rugby isn't a long career and the money is not exactly mega either, I can't blame players for making the decision that benefits their careers.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I'm sure everyone was rather he was CJ O'Stander. But he's not.

As CdS said blame the system, not the player. You can't blame someone for doing the best for them and their family.

The eligibility rules are what they are (were what they were), but my view of 'project players' very much depends on what they contribute to their adopted country's rugby. Stander has stayed loyal to Munster, played regularly for them and seems to have bought in to the local culture / community. I hold him in much higher regard than someone like Duhan vdm who's hightailing it out of Sco at the earliest opportunity.

 

[Leinster Fan]

Somehow missed this thread until now.

Not really interested in engaging with the whole residency debate, that whole conversation has been done to death and the rule's been changed anyway. But I do think it's not really ridiculous that someone who spends most of their 20s living in a country would play from that country even if they're not from there and they also have an affinity with their old country. It's the way the modern world works and there are plenty of people who consider more than one place home. From an Irish perspective where emigration is engrained into our culture someone feeling close to one place while also wanting to live in another doesn't seem particularly surprising or unrealistic.

Anyway, great guy, great player. As Munster players go he was definitely very popular in Leinster, definitely someone people respected both on and off the pitch. Younger than expected and caught me by surprise. As good as Doris is this is a real blow, he's probably been the best player of the Farrell era so far. He'll be missed and should go down as the import that brought the most to the green jersey, definitely also in the top tier of imports from a club standpoint, he's in the club with Nacewa, Pienaar, Elsom etc

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Somehow missed this thread until now.

Not really interested in engaging with the whole residency debate, that whole conversation has been done to death and the rule's been changed anyway. But I do think it's not really ridiculous that someone who spends most of their 20s living in a country would play from that country even if they're not from there and they also have an affinity with their old country. It's the way the modern world works and there are plenty of people who consider more than one place home. From an Irish perspective where emigration is engrained into our culture someone feeling close to one place while also wanting to live in another doesn't seem particularly surprising or unrealistic.

Anyway, great guy, great player. As Munster players go he was definitely very popular in Leinster, definitely someone people respected both on and off the pitch. Younger than expected and caught me by surprise. As good as Doris is this is a real blow, he's probably been the best player of the Farrell era so far. He'll be missed and should go down as the import that brought the most to the green jersey, definitely also in the top tier of imports from a club standpoint, he's in the club with Nacewa, Pienaar, Elsom etc

Good conversation in the second paragraph there. In terms of Irish imports he's the best because of his 50caps. Provincial import is tougher:

1. Isa - Still out on his own in my opinion, former captain and he probably needed a cargo ship to carry his medals home.

2. Howlett - Isa lite. Still went home with a rake of medals and had a long lasting effect.

3. Pienaar - Again a captain, complete club man, brought a very raw Ulster side to a Heino final.

4. Felipe - Filled a long standing gaping hole for Ster, absolute club man, Heino and Magners league winner. Came back to coach well.

5. CJ - Doubt he needs the blurb in this thread.

Splitting hairs on a few guys after the top 4 imo though, Williams, Hines, Muldowney, Elsom, Lowe probably all have deec arguments too. If CJ adds a couple medals he could shoot right up to number 2, he'd have earned it though!

 

[Leinster Fan]

Good conversation in the second paragraph there. In terms of Irish imports he's the best because of his 50caps. Provincial import is tougher:

1. Isa - Still out on his own in my opinion, former captain and he probably needed a cargo ship to carry his medals home.

2. Howlett - Isa lite. Still went home with a rake of medals and had a long lasting effect.

3. Pienaar - Again a captain, complete club man, brought a very raw Ulster side to a Heino final.

4. Felipe - Filled a long standing gaping hole for Ster, absolute club man, Heino and Magners league winner. Came back to coach well.

5. CJ - Doubt he needs the blurb in this thread.

Splitting hairs on a few guys after the top 4 imo though, Williams, Hines, Muldowney, Elsom, Lowe probably all have deec arguments too. If CJ adds a couple medals he could shoot right up to number 2, he'd have earned it though!

Yeah good list, just rolled off the first names that came to me. Got to have Fardy mentioned somewhere though, Brad Thorn also had the best 8 game cameo at Leinster of anyone.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I'm sure everyone was rather he was CJ O'Stander. But he's not.

As CdS said blame the system, not the player. You can't blame someone for doing the best for them and their family.

The eligibility rules are what they are (were what they were), but my view of 'project players' very much depends on what they contribute to their adopted country's rugby. Stander has stayed loyal to Munster, played regularly for them and seems to have bought in to the local culture / community. I hold him in much higher regard than someone like Duhan vdm who's hightailing it out of Sco at the earliest opportunity.

I don't blame anyone that gets out of Scotland at the earliest opportunity.

 

[munstermuffin]

Good conversation in the second paragraph there. In terms of Irish imports he's the best because of his 50caps. Provincial import is tougher:

1. Isa - Still out on his own in my opinion, former captain and he probably needed a cargo ship to carry his medals home.

2. Howlett - Isa lite. Still went home with a rake of medals and had a long lasting effect.

3. Pienaar - Again a captain, complete club man, brought a very raw Ulster side to a Heino final.

4. Felipe - Filled a long standing gaping hole for Ster, absolute club man, Heino and Magners league winner. Came back to coach well.

5. CJ - Doubt he needs the blurb in this thread.

Splitting hairs on a few guys after the top 4 imo though, Williams, Hines, Muldowney, Elsom, Lowe probably all have deec arguments too. If CJ adds a couple medals he could shoot right up to number 2, he'd have earned it though!

Does Contepomi really count as having Heino? Always put him in same bracket as Earls in terms of has 1 but not fully on merit. Yeah he played bit Sexton coming on scene was what won the first one. Contepomi doesn't get injured and ye don't win tournament. Good player just don't think he had that bit extra when it matters.

Regards Provincial guys I think Nacewa is up there. Different guys add different things like Jim Williams returned here to coach and without him we never get as professional as we did and never cross line.

 

[TRF_heineken]

We don't have to get into the whole residency debate again. But let's compare CJ with the likes of Marcel Coetzee, both contributed heavily for their Irish Clubs, both were involved with the Springbok setup before they joined their Irish club, both are coming back to SA. We can even throw in Arno Botha to this conversation.

Why is CJ being put on a higher pedestal than others? I don't see any praises going to Botha or Coetzee and their contributions to the Irish community or their clubs. Is it because they put on a different coloured green shirt?

Speaking of the farm, and his brother etc. Why is this only a topic of conversation now during the pandemic?? Have you guys not read about the farm murders in SA?? So it's understandable that he wants to return to help on the farm in case a family member gets COVID and is incapacitated, but there isn't enough reason for him to come back should there be a farm attack and his parents or brother get violently injured or murdered??? That's not okay with me. Surely you would rather try and help defenseless older people against savages rather than the case of getting COVID, which is pretty hard to get when farming is one of the best examples of keeping social distancing on daily basis.

Most of us knew that CJ would come back to SA, I can't think of many Saffas who play abroad who don't come back, especially Afrikaans speaking Saffas, purely because of their family and children, and wanting their children to grow up like they did and learn to be an Afrikaner. And who can blame him? It's damn nice to be an Afrikaner!

Also the blaming isn't on Ireland, the IRFU or the clubs. They didn't do anything wrong, they acquired an asset.

I just think that CJ is unnecessarily making a lot of people in the rugby community very angry. Ever since he went to Ireland and showed interest in playing for Ireland, there has always been a dark cloud hanging over him, and it has followed him. His flying knee to Pat Lambie also had a factor of making the SA fraternity very mad, and that flying knee ended Lambie's career. It's going to be very hard for him to receive a warm welcome, as us Saffas don't easily forget injustices. He turned his back on the Springbok, and now wants to come back and live in SA where the Springbok thrives?? Gonna be tough

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

We don't have to get into the whole residency debate again. But let's compare CJ with the likes of Marcel Coetzee, both contributed heavily for their Irish Clubs, both were involved with the Springbok setup before they joined their Irish club, both are coming back to SA. We can even throw in Arno Botha to this conversation.

Why is CJ being put on a higher pedestal than others? I don't see any praises going to Botha or Coetzee and their contributions to the Irish community or their clubs. Is it because they put on a different coloured green shirt?

He's retiring and played for Ireland... I'm sure you'll find Ulster fans who prefer Coetzee but why would anyone else?

Speaking of the farm, and his brother etc. Why is this only a topic of conversation now during the pandemic?? Have you guys not read about the farm murders in SA?? So it's understandable that he wants to return to help on the farm in case a family member gets COVID and is incapacitated, but there isn't enough reason for him to come back should there be a farm attack and his parents or brother get violently injured or murdered??? That's not okay with me. Surely you would rather try and help defenseless older people against savages rather than the case of getting COVID, which is pretty hard to get when farming is one of the best examples of keeping social distancing on daily basis.

It's a topic because you brought it up? You got the reaction you wanted I reckon.

Most of us knew that CJ would come back to SA, I can't think of many Saffas who play abroad who don't come back, especially Afrikaans speaking Saffas, purely because of their family and children, and wanting their children to grow up like they did and learn to be an Afrikaner. And who can blame him? It's damn nice to be an Afrikaner!

There's certainly a compelling case that we should all just be Afrikaner, I agree.

Also the blaming isn't on Ireland, the IRFU or the clubs. They didn't do anything wrong, they acquired an asset.

I just think that CJ is unnecessarily making a lot of people in the rugby community very angry. Ever since he went to Ireland and showed interest in playing for Ireland, there has always been a dark cloud hanging over him, and it has followed him. His flying knee to Pat Lambie also had a factor of making the SA fraternity very mad, and that flying knee ended Lambie's career. It's going to be very hard for him to receive a warm welcome, as us Saffas don't easily forget injustices. He turned his back on the Springbok, and now wants to come back and live in SA where the Springbok thrives?? Gonna be tough

Securing a better life for him and his wife makes his people angry and now they'll make his life tough given the chance? It's damn nice to be an Afrikaner.

It also wasn't a flying knee.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

In terms of province
Coetzee only played 57 games in 5 seasons.
Botha played 43 times in 2 seasons
CJ Stander 150 times in 8 seasons

That's a big difference.
I feel if Cotzee had played for 100+ games the fanfare would've been bigger but Ulster fans have always had question marks over his fitness and he was a big ticket signing the term Value for money gets brought and suddenly the "praise" lowers once he leaves. (It's a bit like Tuilagi at Tigers played amazing rugby but reality is he will always be remembered for the games he didn't play if that makes sense)

 

[munstermuffin]

I should add The Springboks turned back on CJ long before he was capped here. And it was the late Axel Foley who nurtured CJ on behalf of Munster and not Ireland. CJ bought in to this community off the field. I'm based in Limerick and seen what he did always giving time for free. The only comparison I can say is Douggie Howlett when here and based in Cork

CJ is more thought of as he has spent longer here, gave his all and well his off field carry on. A gentleman and he never needed an Irish cap here to earn that respect

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Off topic/ on topic what do people think about him going as one of the main 8s on the lions tour? 8 seems an area of real weakness across the home nations at the moment.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Does Contepomi really count as having Heino? Always put him in same bracket as Earls in terms of has 1 but not fully on merit. Yeah he played bit Sexton coming on scene was what won the first one. Contepomi doesn't get injured and ye don't win tournament. Good player just don't think he had that bit extra when it matters.

I think we probably beat Leicester easier with Felipe, he was fairly unplayable that season and Sexton was still very raw. He was the starter up until an injury in the semi-final so I'd definitely count him as having a Heino anyway.

 

[munstermuffin]

I think we probably beat Leicester easier with Felipe, he was fairly unplayable that season and Sexton was still very raw. He was the starter up until an injury in the semi-final so I'd definitely count him as having a Heino anyway.

No I suppose my point was even against us in Croker I thought Sexton coming in was the spark that Leinster needed. I never wish injury on anyone but always said that injury was the best thing that happened Leinster as timing gave a spark that just never went out.

 

[munstermuffin]

Off topic/ on topic what do people think about him going as one of the main 8s on the lions tour? 8 seems an area of real weakness across the home nations at the moment.

100% will go and be there or there abouts. The form 8, versatile and experienced. He adapts to styles too

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I will say I think Elsom was the best ever 1 season signing a club has made.
IMO I would say in terms of shear direct impact Elsom is up their as a signing in world rugby.

Not saying he's the best foreign signing a team has made.
I struggle to think of a player who such a massive direct impact in a short amount of time.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

It also wasn't a flying knee.

Yeh, it was his flying backside.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I should add The Springboks turned back on CJ long before he was capped here. And it was the late Axel Foley who nurtured CJ on behalf of Munster and not Ireland. CJ bought in to this community off the field. I'm based in Limerick and seen what he did always giving time for free. The only comparison I can say is Douggie Howlett when here and based in Cork

CJ is more thought of as he has spent longer here, gave his all and well his off field carry on. A gentleman and he never needed an Irish cap here to earn that respect

FALSE!

He was impatient! He was as a youth player on a EOYT as a non-player, where he toured with the squad to learn about the bok culture. Don't come with that BS that the Springboks turned their backs on him, that was not the case.

While he was on that said EOYT, he was approached by Munster, and he subsequently signed from there. So he was actually the one turning his back on the Springboks, while he was on tour with them!

 

[munstermuffin]

FALSE!

He was impatient! He was as a youth player on a EOYT as a non-player, where he toured with the squad to learn about the bok culture. Don't come with that BS that the Springboks turned their backs on him, that was not the case.

While he was on that said EOYT, he was approached by Munster, and he subsequently signed from there. So he was actually the one turning his back on the Springboks, while he was on tour with them!

He was told by Springboks coaches he was too small and would only ever make it as a hooker.
These are facts that even Heyneke Meyer confirmed. A man that coached CJ from youths.
So no he was not turning back on anyone.

 

[Welsh Exile]

100% will go and be there or there abouts. The form 8, versatile and experienced. He adapts to styles too

Im biased but I'd say Faletau is the form 8 at the moment. I think I read somewhere he's carried better than Stander this year (averaged more yards per carry) and has tackled more. Not 100% on that though.

I agree he should go though, for sure.