Charles Piatau to Ulster

[Shaggy]

By weird I just meant I didn't understand your position.

2009 isn't a fair comparison for me because 2009 did not have any special deals. Our lack of depth in 2009 was caused by us not having enough money to keep players in the country who could not be guaranteed All Blacks starters. I fail to see how simply picking the best players will lead to more 2009 situations. For one there is absolutely no guarantee that Nick Evans would have transitioned successfully back into NZ rugby in 2011.

I think you are also implying (or outright stating) that the All Blacks jersey is not much of a lure outside of World Cups. Aren't you really saying that a lot of players only want to play for the All Blacks at the World Cup and screw the other 3 years? You're sort of saying that players just put up with the other 3 years so they can play at the World Cup. I don't think that is true. I think a lot of players choose to stay in New Zealand and play in the Rugby Championship rather than decide to move offshore for two years. I think a strategy of forcing players to play in NZ for 3 years when they don't want to just to play in a World Cup is more likely to build resentment and it just isn't necessary.

If players want to go, let them; if they come back good enough, pick them. There will always be someone younger who wants to play.

That's an interesting point about the players and the lure of the All Black Jersey in the various years. I think that if you've been an All Black, go overseas, and then return in RWC year, you probably have a better chance of getting back in to the ABs, than if you were a Super Rugby player that does the same thing. I still think that if you are an All Black incumbent, you still have a better chance of being in the RWC mix, than if you are a returning player (with a few exceptions), so there's still motivation to aspire to be an All Black in between RWCs.

Even if you are a "mercenary", for want of a better word, you are undoubtedly going to receive better offers from clubs if you are an All Black, than if you're not, so there's still motivation to be one, no matter what year it is

 

[nickdnz]

By weird I just meant I didn't understand your position.

2009 isn't a fair comparison for me because 2009 did not have any special deals. Our lack of depth in 2009 was caused by us not having enough money to keep players in the country who could not be guaranteed All Blacks starters. I fail to see how simply picking the best players will lead to more 2009 situations. For one there is absolutely no guarantee that Nick Evans would have transitioned successfully back into NZ rugby in 2011.

I think you are also implying (or outright stating) that the All Blacks jersey is not much of a lure outside of World Cups. Aren't you really saying that a lot of players only want to play for the All Blacks at the World Cup and screw the other 3 years? You're sort of saying that players just put up with the other 3 years so they can play at the World Cup. I don't think that is true. I think a lot of players choose to stay in New Zealand and play in the Rugby Championship rather than decide to move offshore for two years. I think a strategy of forcing players to play in NZ for 3 years when they don't want to just to play in a World Cup is more likely to build resentment and it just isn't necessary.

If players want to go, let them; if they come back good enough, pick them. There will always be someone younger who wants to play.

You just contradicted yourself. And yes - I am saying that the World Cup has started to become so salient in our sporting calendar that players are willing to forgo being an All Black in order to earn significantly more money - while still bidding for the glory that comes with a RWC. It's not what I like, but looking at the tendencies of when players tend to depart and return I think it is currently a reality.

I think working to being an incumbent in a position for three years - to miss out on a Rugby World Cup from a player who has a Johnny Come Lately attitude builds resentment and means more of those fringe All Blacks are more likely to cut their loses. I care more about losing those guys than I do about the guys not wanting to return.

 

[TobesHodges]

Rugby's a short Career, why not?

 

[William18]

You just contradicted yourself. And yes - I am saying that the World Cup has started to become so salient in our sporting calendar that players are willing to forgo being an All Black in order to earn significantly more money - while still bidding for the glory that comes with a RWC. It's not what I like, but looking at the tendencies of when players tend to depart and return I think it is currently a reality.

I think working to being an incumbent in a position for three years - to miss out on a Rugby World Cup from a player who has a Johnny Come Lately attitude builds resentment and means more of those fringe All Blacks are more likely to cut their loses. I care more about losing those guys than I do about the guys not wanting to return.

I'm sorry I don't see the contradiction.

The first part was me saying that you believe players only care about the World Cup. I don't think that is true as evidenced by all the people who haven't gone overseas. We didn't suffer mass exoduses in 2012 and 2013 with players coming back in 2014. We just lost Kaino and Gear. Basically two players are doing the World Cup cycle as opposed to about 40 who decided not to.

The second part is me saying that if we put your idea into affect then it will cause resentment. If we just told Piutau that he can't come back for the World Cup in 2018 then rather than staying for 2016 and 2017 he would probably just leave now and never come back.

I believe that under the current system players enjoy playing for the All Blacks for all 4 years. If we adopted your system and forced them to stay then that would build resentment which currently isn't there. I think it makes sense that you can enjoy something when it is a choice and dislike it when it is an obligation.

 

[Shaggy]

I'm sorry I don't see the contradiction.

The first part was me saying that you believe players only care about the World Cup. I don't think that is true as evidenced by all the people who haven't gone overseas. We didn't suffer mass exoduses in 2012 and 2013 with players coming back in 2014. We just lost Kaino and Gear. Basically two players are doing the World Cup cycle as opposed to about 40 who decided not to.

The second part is me saying that if we put your idea into affect then it will cause resentment. If we just told Piutau that he can't come back for the World Cup in 2018 then rather than staying for 2016 and 2017 he would probably just leave now and never come back.

I believe that under the current system players enjoy playing for the All Blacks for all 4 years. If we adopted your system and forced them to stay then that would build resentment which currently isn't there. I think it makes sense that you can enjoy something when it is a choice and dislike it when it is an obligation.

I agree - no changes in policy are needed. The lure of selection for the All Blacks, and the current criteria to eligible for selection is all that's needed. Returning players still have to prove that they are better than the other contenders, to gain selection.

I can't see how you could prevent "Johnny come lately" (players arriving back in NZ in RWC years) from being in the mix for the ABs. You'd have to change your selection/eligibility policy for all players, regardless of the player's age and experience, then you'd have to specify how long they have to play in NZ for.

Anything short of four years prior to an RWC, is just going to move the returning player "problem", for want of a better way to describe it, to another year, other than RWC year, and a four year cycle is going to result in AB Players either playing one cup, skipping the next, returning for the one that follower, or more than likely, leaving NZ shores permanently. Young players might also turn down the AB jersey altogether and look to play for other countries, either through ethnicity or residential grounds, because the policy is too restrictive.

It's the competition for the jersey that makes the team/squad strong, and a player that has had the privileged of wearing it for three years, still has to prove that they are the best in that fourth year, regardless of where the players challenging them come from.

 

[chikwa chibwe]

I think the reason he is going is he hadn't been picked enough. This was even after his injury . How Hansen still has faith in Corey Jane is baffling . Yet he won't pick Andy Ellis who is clearly the second best scrum half.

 

[MotherRucker1]

I don't think you could say it's 'baffling' Hansen picks Jane. Jane probably has the best ariel skills of any of our backs, and while he doesn't gain as much meters as Savea traditionally he is a little more skilled at the chip kicks when he runs out of space, or the offload. I've just found he creates opportunities for others, which compliments Savea's brute X factor presence quite well. It's not as if he's in a rut for tries this year.

Ellis is playing well this year it seems, but his form in years gone by has been questionable, and it's possible Hansen has wanted to invest in some younger guys. You may see Ellis beat out Pulu for the third half back spot in the World Cup.

 

[austingtir]

I think the reason he is going is he hadn't been picked enough. This was even after his injury . How Hansen still has faith in Corey Jane is baffling . Yet he won't pick Andy Ellis who is clearly the second best scrum half.

Jane's actually been pretty impressive this season. But I agree the previous few he's been missing in action a bit.

 

[nzlizard]

I think the reason he is going is he hadn't been picked enough. This was even after his injury . How Hansen still has faith in Corey Jane is baffling . Yet he won't pick Andy Ellis who is clearly the second best scrum half.

Yeah I kinda wondered this aw well, Jane has one of the best rugby brains for a winger if you ask m and his skill set is 2nd to none, however since coming back form his injury he doesn't beat his man as much as he used to, Piatau should have got way more time, if we were picking on form.

 

[steblin]

So wake up this morning to see Francis Saili has signed a two year deal with Munster. I know he was falling in the AB centre pecking order, but another fringe player leaving young.

So The Blues are loosing him, Piutau, Halai and Luke Braid to Europe next year... For a team already in real trouble that kind of loss is going to be very difficult to overcome.

 

[Shaggy]

I think the reason he is going is he hadn't been picked enough. This was even after his injury . How Hansen still has faith in Corey Jane is baffling . Yet he won't pick Andy Ellis who is clearly the second best scrum half.

Ellis was meant to go on the end of year tour last year, but the couldn't get the release from his Japanese club - I'm pretty sure he'll be in the mix for the RWC

 

[nzlizard]

So wake up this morning to see Francis Saili has signed a two year deal with Munster. I know he was falling in the AB centre pecking order, but another fringe player leaving young.

So The Blues are loosing him, Piutau, Halai and Luke Braid to Europe next year... For a team already in real trouble that kind of loss is going to be very difficult to overcome.

Yeah a bit concerning given this is Nonu's last year and SBW may not be around next year.

Saili had that bad game early last? and that really seemed to dent his chance, didn't he fumble a few balls and then they scored a try of his mistake? never saw a lot of him after his injury so maybe that was a signal for him to look elsewhere.

Again can't really blame him, I always refer back to the after the 2007 world cup were the AB's management came out and said we need to look at picking players based on form not reputation, some of the old heads didn't deliver, they never really stuck by there world and then they wonder why the yoong guys leave.

Article here about Hansen

https://nz.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/b/-/26968615/steve-hansen-the-whinger/

 

[nickdnz]

Yeah a bit concerning given this is Nonu's last year and SBW may not be around next year.

Saili had that bad game early last? and that really seemed to dent his chance, didn't he fumble a few balls and then they scored a try of his mistake? never saw a lot of him after his injury so maybe that was a signal for him to look elsewhere.

Again can't really blame him, I always refer back to the after the 2007 world cup were the AB's management came out and said we need to look at picking players based on form not reputation, some of the old heads didn't deliver, they never really stuck by there world and then they wonder why the yoong guys leave.

Article here about Hansen

https://nz.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/b/-/26968615/steve-hansen-the-whinger/

Please never post tripe from "The man in the stands" again. Miserable, miserable columnist.

 

[MotherRucker1]

A few lines in and can already tell the article is going to be more about the author imposing their personality and writing twaddle than any reasoned argument.

 

[steblin]

Yeah a bit concerning given this is Nonu's last year and SBW may not be around next year.

Saili had that bad game early last? and that really seemed to dent his chance, didn't he fumble a few balls and then they scored a try of his mistake? never saw a lot of him after his injury so maybe that was a signal for him to look elsewhere.

Again can't really blame him, I always refer back to the after the 2007 world cup were the AB's management came out and said we need to look at picking players based on form not reputation, some of the old heads didn't deliver, they never really stuck by there world and then they wonder why the yoong guys leave.

Article here about Hansen

https://nz.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/b/-/26968615/steve-hansen-the-whinger/

Yeah you're right, if I remember correctly we were trying to play the ball out of our 22 and Saili dropped a simple pass which went for a score. His club form has been fairly unspectacular ever since, but still very young and with promise.

 

[nzlizard]

Please never post tripe from "The man in the stands" again. Miserable, miserable columnist.

lol yeah hes not the best but he is going in the right direction, I agree with most of what he has written in regards to Hansen.

 

[Shaggy]

Yeah a bit concerning given this is Nonu's last year and SBW may not be around next year.

Saili had that bad game early last? and that really seemed to dent his chance, didn't he fumble a few balls and then they scored a try of his mistake? never saw a lot of him after his injury so maybe that was a signal for him to look elsewhere.

Again can't really blame him, I always refer back to the after the 2007 world cup were the AB's management came out and said we need to look at picking players based on form not reputation, some of the old heads didn't deliver, they never really stuck by there world and then they wonder why the yoong guys leave.

Article here about Hansen

https://nz.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/b/-/26968615/steve-hansen-the-whinger/

I disagree, I think the 2011 selectors weren't scared to drop the experienced player or the form player ... Dagg starting ahead of Mils, who only just got to his 100th cap, was pretty ballsy. Hansen has brought through a number of young players who started ahead of their more experienced rivals. Aaron Smith ahead of Weepu and Ellis, Ben Smith ahead of Dagg, Cory Jane remains under pressure from a number of different players, Julian Savea has cemented the left wing spot under Hansen. Dane Coles has also come through to be the top number 2, but I'm sure Hansen would love to not have to rely on Mealamu (great servant that he has been, but no one has stepped up. Crotty, Fekitoa, Barrett ... all young guys given a go.

Kind of related ... Steven Luatua has re-signed with the Blues http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...d-Rugby?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

[The Jones Boy]

There will come a time when NZ will have to allow overseas kiwis access to the AB selection policy or they won't have any experienced players to choose from and the Kiwi players leaving so young will be eligible for NH teams when they are in their peak.
Like it or lump it, money talks and a rugby players career can be over every game they play.
I don't blame any of them for chasing the lucre.
It's a profession, not a sport.

 

[Jack Reacher]

There will come a time when NZ will have to allow overseas kiwis access to the AB selection policy or they won't have any experienced players to choose from .

Agree, NZ will be the last union (possibly behind England) to amend this rule due to the perceived 'lure of the jersey'. It will get to a point where our star players of 5-10 years time will simply force their hand a change will have to be made.
This will force an international season, Feb to October with two international breaks (6N and RC in April then an international series in Sept).
Its not too hot in Europe to play during Summer, they play in May and August already anyhow.
If you look at the last 10-15 years of NZ fixtures we play more games away from home now anyway (3 int series, 3 RC, then 7-8 away)