Chariot repair shop - What to fix and change

[Ragey Erasmus]

After England's game against Wales it is undeniable that changes are needed in the England squad. Now I'd say the following ar ethe main areas of weakness:

- Lack of awareness. England had few tries but if you watched replays, we actually developed many try scoring chances with favourable overlaps. It's that the players inside are so used to not looking to the wings that these overlaps are wasted. If the players had been more aware of what was going on around them, we could have been in a very different situation. Hell in the Wales game we presented 2 nice overlaps that we compeltely wasted.

- Lack of support. Says it all really. When players make breaks we don't have people on their shoulder to keep up the pressure and our forwards aren't up fast enough to clear out and keep momentum.

- Poor clearing of the ruck. In the game vs Wales the Welsh would clear the ruck pretty quickly most occassions. The English side in comparison were poor at clearing the ruck and terrible at competing. Part of this was due to Walsh being selective in punishing breakdown infringements but that still doesn't excuse it.

- Inability to react. If we are weak in the scrum then for the love of God don't try to play games in the scrum. Get the ball in and out again as quickly as possible.

- Slow line reorganisation. Forwards should not walk back to the line when on the wrong side. Whilst he is on the wrong side there is a gap in the line that can be exploited by a pick and drive as the Welsh did. We need our players back in position ASAP. Most teams do this well when the game is right on their try line which is why teams really struggle to make that last meter. England have become sloppy again with the speed of our forwards reorganising. Granted it's tiring but more tiring is having to then rush further back when the opposing team just battered through the line where that forward should have been.

As for players, I think Ashton, Goode, Marler and Barritt need to leave the squad. All of them offer nothing in attack and are poor in defence except for Barritt. Brown should take Goode's position as I feel he has potential but has been woefully underused. This leaves 2 wingers. Currently the England wings could be practically ignored because England rarely used them and when they did, it was often in poor conditions. Massive changes needed there so we actually give our new wingers some space. I'm currently undecided as to who should take the position but feel it should be based on current form and the wing positions should be the most adjustable (ie only players on top form on our wings, don't hold on to players hoping they will improve again).

We also desperately need Morgan back, little more to say about that. 12 trees needs to be on with Tuilagi. We need someone who will run lines and actually pass than our currently line which just do crash bang tactics. It can work for Tuilagi but we shouldn't have the whole line doing it when he is the only one who can hope to pull it off.

Lastly we need to make sure that Farrell isn't our poster boy. He should know that his position is not secure.

Thoughts?

 

[Peat]

I have no problem with us being choosy about which rucks we enter in defence. Most sides will simply fan out from most rucks leaving one guy at most in there and only really hit the ruck if the turnover is on. Fine. That's ok. Of course, the defence has to be tight for that to work. If it's not, not so ok. I'd suggest the forward fringe defence was mostly ok. Why? Apart from the two guys who got big clean breaks, those being at the expense of the backs, most of Wales' forwards only carried the ball about a metre everytime they went, if that. The forwards did miss a lot of tackles, but mostly on backs. The only guy who really beat a lot of forwards one on one is Faletau, and psychic duck's gif in the Lions forum shows where most of those came from - running sideways for ten metres while avoiding tacklers. That's fine. Doesn't look great as a statistic, but I don't care how many tackles they miss if the guys are up in the line for the next one and their net gain was only about 2m if that.

ESPN gives a statistic of them winning 96pc of their rucks and us winning 94.5pc of our rucks. That's kinda ok. I don't want to suggest its fine, but we have bigger issues, and frankly a lot of our issues on our own ball would be solved by a) putting an extra man into rucks, like we did early on in the tournament and b) getting over the tackle line so they have to retreat to join the ruck.

That is one of the big issues of our pack. We don't have enough wrecking ball carriers. The other is our set piece is shaky. Together they hint at a need for some bigger, more powerful players in there - and possibly a few more experienced ones. That's a choice we have to make. If we want to build, and select young players, we need to accept the occasional shellacking. If people want to compromise and throw in a few older guys like Sheridan, Nick Wood, Easter - fine - but we can't complain if we then find ourselves looking at more talent holes.

In general, I think our pack is mostly fine. When Ben Morgan is fit, we have that carrier - although we could use more. We need to blood Billy Vunipola and get him up to speed as a competitor. Corbs strengthens the scrum a lot when fit. Mako Vunipola could become an awesome player with another season's experience and a bit more fitness. Marler I think is getting an unfair amount of brickbats, he's coped well with most of the challenges so far despite his youth, Adam Jones is the hardest scrummaging challenge in world rugby and we shouldn't discard him just failing it. He's not in my next England 23 if everyone's fit, but he still has a future. I would like Marler to put some weight back on. He's shrunk down since U20 level, a bit more muscle I think is crucial.

Obviously there's improvements that could be made. Dan Cole needs a rival. Geoff Parling needs a rival. Big men like Ed Slater, that Holmes cat at Sale, Matt Garvey, they need a proper shot. Let's try someone like Kvesic or Fraser. I'd like to see what our other hookers offer. I'd like to see a really f**k-off big 6 option, really hoping Sisi comes through. I'd cheerfully experiment with Launchbury and Kruis at blindside too. But if the following pack lines up next 6N - Corbs/Vunipola - Youngs - Cole - Launchbury - Parling - Wood - Robshaw - Morgan/Vunipola - I will not be too unhappy.

The back line is an absolute mess however. Barritt and Tuilagi have both been guilty of some appalling selfishness with the ball and, gods help us, they've been some of our better backs. Both Alex Goode and Chris Ashton look lost and, given the standard of back three player available to us, they have to be dropped. Mike Brown can do a job as an international wing but no more, that experiment needs to be stopped. As you say, there is a lack of awareness - and there is a lack of support too. The support is, imo, partly the fault of the back three and partly the fault of the pack. How often did we see a runner lining up on Fazlet or Flood's shoulder? We are leaving them with three options - pass it against a blitz defence; kick; run it. That's just poor. I have to question Mike Catt's effectiveness. Twelvetrees should play all of the Argentina tests at 12 and then we can see where we are. Allen to come in if he's really poor/gets injured. As for the back-three - anyone, anyone! I don't mind if we have someone like Foden or Abendanon on one of the wings to try and keep up the pressure game, part of me thinks it could be a good call, but all wingers have to have pace. Foden's as slow as it should go. The other winger, I'd start with one of May and Wade, but I think Yarde, Elliot, Thompstone and Nowell are all applying pressure and making cases for themselves.

Whatever the weather, we need more natural game breakers in the backs. Youngs and Care, for all their flaws, can do that, but really need some other guys around to distract the fringe defence. Tuilagi can. Mike Brown can - at a domestic level from full-back at least. That's not really enough. So give Freddie Burns a whirl too. Give Elliot Daly a try. These guys may have some defensive issues, but if we're happy to have people learning how to attack on the job, or playng their way into form, I don't mind the odd weak defender.

In short - pack needs fine tuning with an eye to trying out the bigger options and seeing how they go; the backline needs radical overhaul, but preferably while maintaining the defensive integrity in midfield - which won't be so easy.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I agree with all of the above and have to ask the question would we have been batter using an entire quins backline for that game! When we had the ball we were shocking! I don't know what is the problem but no one played well from the backs this entire 6 nations and i partly blame that on Mike Catt but the players just arn't used to playing the way we need to play. Wasps play that way, Quins do, Gloucester do so why not use their players?

Although tuiagi made a few breaks i think he is part of the problem we have in our backs. I think he needs a lot of coaching to make him look for space and be aware of other players around him. If he doesn't learn then use a natural footballer like Lowe, Daly. We need to work as a unit and not just rely on one player to break the line!

10 Farrell
11 May
12 12trees
13 ????
14 wade/ Yarde
15 Brown

Much better but will Lancaster make the right calls?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Like I said in the other thread, I agree with most of what you've said. I think that the players need to be coached into valuing distribution more that beating the man marking you with a dummy or step.
I think Marler just isn't ready yet, give him a year or two and see what he becomes. He has played ok, just looks a bit out of his depth at the moment.
I think Brown was actually one of our players of the tournament.
The biggest thing we have learnt though, is that positional stereotypes are there for a reason; they work.

 

[Rhondda Rudie]

Burns for Farrell,Twelvetrees for Barritt,Anyone for Ashton,Wade for Brown and Brown for Goode.

Back row of 6 Robshaw 7 Armitiage 8 Morgan

 

[Peat]

I'm not certain whether its cheering or depressing that we call all so easily identify and agree on areas of improvement and people to implement it. Ok, sure, it means we can look forwards to being stronger - presumably - but if we can all spot it...

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I guess the main question is what does Lancaster think? Trying to do anything to Farrell will be difficult whilst daddy Farrell has Lancasters ear. Maybe get rid of the pair of them? England have been poor in attack and defence so it might be worth letting the coaches know that they also have to be up to standard if they want their position. Lancaster doesn't come across as very ruthless but he did good work starting the job of removing the rotten parts of the old England, I hope now the 6N is over he will finish it rather than getting bogged down in the same team like Johnson did.

 

[Peat]

I guess the main question is what does Lancaster think? Trying to do anything to Farrell will be difficult whilst daddy Farrell has Lancasters ear. Maybe get rid of the pair of them? England have been poor in attack and defence so it might be worth letting the coaches know that they also have to be up to standard if they want their position. Lancaster doesn't come across as very ruthless but he did good work starting the job of removing the rotten parts of the old England, I hope now the 6N is over he will finish it rather than getting bogged down in the same team like Johnson did.

He's dropped Fazlet before and I believe he'll do it if he thinks its the right option - it's just does he think it is? I'm in no hurry to drop him tbh. I'm a huge Burns fan, but Farrell is developing nicely. Give Burns a chance and if he takes it, well and good, but the half-backs I can live with. It's the rest of it.

And England haven't been poor in defence - I think Warburton's pick and go was the only break through our midfield all tournament. We've been good, very good apart from the cluster-f**k in the back three.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Front row - The loosehead situation is tricky, I think Marler has the potential to be our second choice behind Vunipola if Corbs is crocked long-term, if not then Corbs and Mako are the two. If Corbs is unavailable for the summer, then I think we need to drop Marler for a stronger scrummager to avoid any further man-shamings, Mullan would be my choice. Hooker is tricky, I think Youngs is well ahead of Hartley. The thing that is troubling me is that I had always considered Youngs a very strong scrummager, Leicester have always spoken of him as such anyway, the last few matches have made me doubt this though. I might be in the minority that think Hartley isn't good enough. In an ideal world I'd want Rob Buchanan to replace him.
Despite recent events Dan Cole is still the first name on the team-sheet, and rightly so. We do need someone to step up and stake their claim for the second TH place though. Wilson has been solid throughout his caps, and is unappreciated by many I think.
He is probably the better scrummager of the two, but I think both will struggle with our current locks behind them. This is one of the less urgent situations, that could change very quickly should Cole be injured however.

Second Row - There is also the issue of the second row, which I think is in danger of being overlooked in lieu of the more obvious backline issues. We need a tighthead lock to be brought in to re-balance the pack.
The top payers that fulfill that role in the premiership, to me are: Attwood, Garvey and Slater. This is critical imo.

Back Row - As with the second row, we need to re-balance the back row. Tom Wood and Robshaw are our 6's, if they both start at 6-7 for the time being it's fine by me. On the condition that our proper 7's are looked at.
Kvesic, Fraser and even Armitage need to be looked at. I think Kvesic could be the one though, he looks like he has the dog for international rugby, whilst also being a great jackler and footballer.
Fraser is probably a better finisher than a lot of the Wingers that have played for England in the past few years... I don't think he has the quality that Kvesic or Armitage though.
On the subject of Robshaw, and whether or not he is a 7, could the emergence of Luke Wallace mean he is played at 6 for Quins again? I hope so.
Saying he is not a 7 is not taking anything away from him, he simply isn't.
Morgan is nailed on starter when fit, Billy is next in line. I don't see how anyone can argue against that.

Scrum Half - As good as Young and Care are on the front foot, I think we need to give Joe Simpson a chance to put some pressure on them. Let him train with them at least, I think those two have probably become complacent.
No real issue here with Care/Youngs as individuals, but they are more or less the same player.

Fly Half - I think Farrell has improved steadily with pretty much every game, but Burns is better in pretty much every regard, bar tackling/rucking. He is in possession of the shirt, but Burns needs to be given serious game time over the summer, not just a token 20 mins at the end of easy wins. Doing so will show that the coaches have learned that their inversion of the phrase "Attack is the best form of defense" does not hold true. And that they intend to adapt their tactics to the players that are available to them.

Inside Center - Twelvetrees needs to be given a run of games, he is as complete an inside center as we have in England. The guy has the potential to be class, and has no real weakness as far as I can see.
Manu could be lethal if only we didn't rely on him so much. When the backline (including Manu) realise that he is not a one man army then his impact will increase dramatically.

Wingers - Ashton is done, and has been for a while, not necessarily forever but he will need to improve his domestic form dramatically to deserve any international recognition.
We need to give them space and give them the ball. We also need to pick on domestic form, I feel this is more true for wingers than any other position seeing as though it's the most reliant on the individual.
Wade and May are most peoples favorites, take those two out and we still have a **** load of players that can play.

Full back - Mike Brown. It's his. Goode is safe as you like under uncontested high-ball, that's about it. Foden could quite rightly come back in, if he doesn't then Elliot Daly should. As long as Foden can cut out the consistent big errors he seems to have been making for the last year or so then I think he deserves a chance. NOT AS A WING HOWEVER, we already have enough of those thanks Stuart.

I think generally we have makings of a strong team. We need to change the direction they are moving in at this early stage though. More focus on attack plz stu xx.

Players who should be called up as replacements for Argentina assuming the current EPS player is selected for Lions:

Cole - Dunno tbh
Tom Youngs - Buchanan
Parling - Attwood and Slater/Garvey
Robshaw - Kvesic and Fraser
Wood - Carl Fearns
Morgan - Billy Vunipola, Jack Clifford? As long as it's not Waldrom I don't care.
Farrell - Ford? I hate to admit that Flood might be necessary...
Tuilagi - Jonathan Joseph is next in line I would think, Daly?

Eastmond needs to be brought in too... dat talent. He is one person who can give our wide men a chance.

 

[Peat]

The problem with Robshaw to 6, Wallace to 7 is that Fa'asavalu is rather good and provides a big physical input - which will be even more necessary next year with Johnston gone to Sarries. That said, I've seen some Quins fans say Fa'asavalu is not in the best of form at the moment, Wallace is pushing hard and I believe that option is on the table. Would be fantastic for England.

Agree with most of the things you say - except I find it odd that you look at Simpson as a different sort of player to Care and Youngs, and would be ok with Foden on the wing. What with him being fast enough to do the job there. Not sure I'd push for it, but it doesn't have the same disaster waiting to happen feeling that Brown there did.

p.s. Joseph is in the squad, call up Daly. Henry Thomas will be the replacement for Cole. Guest or Ed Jackson ahead of Clifford.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It still makes me want to projectile vomit blood that Seymour isn't even in the Saxons.

I'd like to see Fearns get some time over the summer - Would be a great bench option covering 6, 8 and 7 (in that order). Big carrier, big hitter and huge work rate.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I think Simpson is more well rounded than either Youngs or Care are. He gets the ball away faster, has a better kicking game and better defense than either of those two. He doesn't lose a whole lot in the running game either, which is their main strength.
They all have fairly similar skillsets, but from what I have seen Simpson seems to focus on giving the FH quick ball not making breaks.

I know Joseph in still in the squad, I meant that he shouldn't be leapfrogged by anyone.
I don't see any good reason as to why Foden should be played on the wing.
Isn't Henry Thomas a **** scrummager? TBH I'm actually quite excited about seeing what Davey Wilson can do if given a decent run out.

I'm perfectly happy to see what the young 7's we have can do before turning to Seymour. Kvesic is a star in the making by all accounts.

I like Fearns a lot too, he was great in the mid week games in SA.

 

[Peat]

Statistically Simpson breaks about as much as the rest of them - the impression I've always got from him was better breaker, worse in the scrum-half fundementals, but I haven't watched him closely.

Thomas... dunno tbh, don't watch much Sale. Olyy said he'd improved a lot before his last injury, but Olyy is a one eyed gimp It is going to be him though.

David Wilson on the pitch at international level will be a rare and interesting sighting, that's for sure.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Thomas is nowhere near international scrummaging.
Brilliant carrier/defender, but in the scrum....
I'm happy for him to be around the England squad so he can learn from the coaches/players, as God knows he won't be learning anything from Buckley.

Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Tapatalk 2

 

[psychic duck]

It still makes me want to projectile vomit blood that Seymour isn't even in the Saxons.

Sell him to Leicester or Saracens. That should solve your problem and get him into at least the Saxons.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Selling our best, most consistent player/captain wouldnt help too much, I imagine

Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Tapatalk 2

 

[Aedaphon]

Please, please say we'll finally call up Armitage if Robshaw is on the plane?

(I know we won't)

 

[TommyV]

Agree with a lot of these points. I'd like to see Corbs back at loose-head and Mako continuing to be blooded as an impact sub and possible starter, work on refining his game from a technical point of view and with his athletic gifts and ball-skills he could be a major find. Get Hartley out for a new hooker, whoever that may be. Work on refining Youngs game hard too. That will come with experience though no doubt, same with Mako who needs regularly rugby at Saracens. Find somebody to put pressure on Cole, and work on refining his scrummaging game/getting it back to form.

Find a tight-head lock, I agree, whoever that may be. Parling has been excellent and is a great line-out general but I feel that Launchbury is the more talented player who I'd prefer to stay in the long-run, therefore I think Parling should in the long-term make way for a similarly gifted line-out general who's a bigger presence in the scrum.

As for the back-row, find a genuine 7. Robshaw can still play there in the short term but ultimately, I'd like to see a genuine 7 option arise. Could be Armitage, could be somebody younger being blooded. Robshaw and Wood are two very good players but ultimatley have similar roles and qualities. Leave them to fight it out for the blindside spot. Develop Vunipola behind Morgan. When the latter is out and Wood or Haskell have to deputise at 8, we lose so much. We need a back-up specialist 8 and another powerful ball-carrier just in case.

Scrum-half situation still needs to be sorted long-term. Care needs to improve in areas, box-kicking for example, needs to retain his ability to break but concentrate more on getting quick ball to the backs as has been mentioned. Simpson should still be given a shot IMO, or maybe someone else. Youngs is decent but only performs behind a dominant pack.

Give Burns time at fly-half, please. Farrell is not the unarguable answer right now and is NOT the new Wilkinson. Burns has so much more to offer in an attacking capacity. With more time in an international 10 shirt we'll be able to tell whether he's strong enough defensively and can handle the pressures and be a consistent performer.

36 at inside-centre, PLEASE. Barritt is fantastic defensively but who cares when he stifles our attacking threat so much. Twelvetrees is so much more complete from an attacking sense. He can carry with more threat, actually distribute a ball, even kick and act well as a second-receiver. And he's hardly bad defensively himself.

As for outside centre, Tuilagi needs to be utilized properly. The crash-ball option he's been made in to is so infuriating when we're talking about somebody with great speed too who can run dangerous lines and angles, actually beat a player without having to smash through them, and can spot a supporting player and get away an offload or pass under pressure and keep a move going. He could be amazing if used in the right capacity and so destructive.

New wings. Ashton is out of form, out of sorts and a defensive liability. Brown has been exceptionally solid but is not an international wing. May, Wade, even Strettle (starting) or Varndell or Monye or JSD again, I don't care. Anybody.

Speaking of Brown, start him at 15 please. Goode has good positional awareness and a bigger boot, but he offers nothing from an attacking sense. Brown has been very consistent and solid and that's exactly what I would want at 15, not to mention he actually has pace and can beat a player and offer an attacking threat.

 

[ratsapprentice]

From Lancasters comments so far, I have a feeling there isn't going to be as big a clearout as most people would like. Which is a bit depressing, considering the situation previous coaches have got themselves into whereby they keep players who are continually under performing whilst ignoring others others who are, almost purely out of a stubborn defiance of the public pressure.

 

[Peat]

If he introduces a creative player into the midfield axis and sorts out the clusterf**k in the back three, then that's most of my issues (hopefully) sorted.

I seriously don't get the back three. Build a team around defence and pressure? Fine. But then why include some of the worst tackling English wingers in the Premiership? If you look up the stats for all the form/internationally involved wings, Varndell is comfortably worst, then Jamie Elliot, then Strettle and Ashton. May and Sharples next, then Thompstone, then Monye and Wade more or less equal, then Yarde, then Nowell right at the top. Now, these are just stats, and I don't have the full context, but still - it's pretty clear there are far better defenders available. It also goes to show I'm constantly forgetting Bath exists.

That said - I do take Lancaster's statements with a pinch of salt these days - he does PR speak very well, to be kind...