Change of Coach needed!

[Saint4805]

TBF Scotland should be happy prob considered the best tier 2 team ATM.

Hell of a Achievement.

Yes but the 'small nation' argument doesn't wash when Wales and Ireland are consistently competing for the 6N ***le.

I actually think that Scotland and England suffer from the similar mindset issues in that they seem to struggle to get the most out of their players on the international stage against the top sides. The only difference is that England have a bit better quality and more strength in depth in their squad which allows them to stay in the mix but when you look at how well their club sides are doing in Europe they should probably be running away with the 6N.

 

[corny]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015–16_European_Rugby_Champions_Cup

Sort of shows the state of the Pro12 teams currently, as noted it's France under performing rather than the other way around. 9 out of the 31 Welsh players play in England or France. Remember also 100% of England players play in England and most play for a top 6 club, 5 of which made the playoffs in European cup. In all honesty you pool that talent together and you understand why English fans are frustrated with our complete lack of tournament wins in the past 4 years.

So yeah I don't think you can read too much into Glasgow winning the Pro12 last season as a yard stick to whether they should beat England.

I agree with your point regarding Scotland but with the Pro 12 all your seeing this year is the rising salary cap in action. Only going to get worse too. In previous years the likes of Leinster bolstered their ranks with Rocky Elsom, a young Nacewa, Brad Thorne etc. They made an obvious difference. Now that calibre of player is ending up in England and France and we have to settle for Zane Kirchner and an ageing Nacewa.

When (not if) that gap widens at club level in the coming years i think the Champions Cup will become a much poorer guide for the 6N's. Bigger squads and more and more Kiwis and Saffa's will be responsible for widening the gap, not the English talent pool.

Don't get me wrong England have some quality players to choose from and they probably should have sneaked a the 6N's ***le but they've certainly no right to dominate based on the club game.

 

[Ospreylian]

There was a decent bit of analysis last night actually on Scrum V about how Scotland's basic instinctive skills are lacking, through no fault of coaches probably. An example would be that when they are defending they seem to naturally turn in with their shoulders when the attacking opposition beat one or two players and get drawn in too easily, rather than holding their structure and marking man for man. Also, players like Russell play a risky game by going looking for interceptions more than they probably should, creating the gaps when they rush up out of the defensive line. Rather than their defensive line acting as one unit, sometimes it fragments and players blitz when others are drifting, creating the gaps. Some of this may be down to coaching, but I'd argue it's partly instinct and habit. Scotland historically since the six nations started have lost certain games by fairly big margins against the likes of England, Wales and Ireland. I think when one of those teams makes a break they seem likely to panic more easily than the other home nations and fear the worst, throwing defenders in where they are not required because they are worried about the ground the attacker is making. Whereas if you watched Wales and Ireland yesterday, for example, both teams looked relaxed in defence and communicated with one another far more effectively, with players marking one on one and not being suckered in to simple defensive traps.

 

[Shaun 85]

0 wins in 9 now so it really is time for change!!!

In fact, if I was Vern, I'd resign right now because it is just ridiculous how we can't win, even when we were ****ing leading!!!

 

[Colombia]

Scotland have changed their coach many times, same results. Changing the coach again is going to make what difference?

What's 0 wins in 9 refer to? Cotter has only been in charge for 7 Six Nations matches.

Oh you're counting losses to Oz & SA where Scotland were clear underdogs and should've made the semis.

 

[Saint4805]

0 wins in 9 now so it really is time for change!!!

In fact, if I was Vern, I'd resign right now because it is just ridiculous how we can't win, even when we were ****ing leading!!!

We would have beaten Wales last year if it wasn't for Russell's ridiculous red card.
I'm predicting we win our next two and then lose narrowly to Ireland.

 

[YoungScud]

Scotland have changed their coach many times, same results. Changing the coach again is going to make what difference?

What's 0 wins in 9 refer to? Cotter has only been in charge for 7 Six Nations matches.

Oh you're counting losses to Oz & SA where Scotland were clear underdogs and should've made the semis.

He's referring to the fact that we've lost the last 9 times we've played Wales. Since Cotter was only around for two of those games, that kind of makes a nonsense of the gut reaction we see here.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Not sure where the problem lies, but maybe it's more about people's unrealistic expectations and not about the team under-delivering.

 

[spartan32]

Watched both England v Scotland and Wales v Scotland. Both games could have been won by Scotland, but the players lack the presence of mind to make the right decisions at the critical times. This comes down to leadership on the field, not coaching off it. If Scotland were getting smashed all over the place then ok, but they are not, often loosing by just a few points.

Take he Wales game. Scotland were on on top, 13-10 in the lead, with an attacking scrum in the Welsh 22. Any team worth their salt are turning that into points, or at the very least force Wales to clear their lines leading to either a line out or counter attacking run back. What did the scots do, fumble it forward, not get numbers in place and allow the Welsh to run nearly the entire pitch and end up in their own 22, followed not long after by a try?! That isn't bad coaching, that's poor playing.

Then Norths try where he runs sideways around four Scot defenders none of whom even touch him and allow him to saunter in for a another try?! At international level such things just shouldn't happen.

 

[Peat]

0 wins in 9 now so it really is time for change!!!

In fact, if I was Vern, I'd resign right now because it is just ridiculous how we can't win, even when we were ****ing leading!!!

Shaun, take a step back, long shower, sink a drink, and listen to the consensus.

There is only so much Vern Cotter can do with Scotland's players. There's only so much any coach could do. This simply is not a great international group of players. There's not many (if any) great players, there's not much depth.

I'm not saying Cotter is perfect or not making mistakes but you're really unlikely to find a better coach.

 

[gaston le gaff]

Changing the coach will not help Scotlands cause, Vern Cotter is doing a good job, Scotland are playing good rugby for Scotland we have not seen this sort of commitment for years, their last 2 games showed that, the choice of any coach is so limited for Scotland, 2 PRO teams and a few other players scattered around Europe.If Scotland are to content with the major Euro nations they must develope more in the Academies and of course the age old problem of money is always going to hit where it hurts. The stadiums are like Wales more or less empty and revenue whether you like it or not is all important. With what he has to select from i think Vern is doing a very good job. Take France for example everybody said they were in for another bad year but Noves has brought in the youngsters and given them confidence to produce at the highest level they possibly can, at at the moment things look good or much better than the last 4 or so years, as i said in other posts France win their 3 home games that's a result for a country down in the dumps as far as International rugby goes .

 

[ncurd]

They could hire Lancaster I hear he's looking for a job and Scotland like hiring failed England coaches...

 

[Chistera]

Cotter is such a great coach, Scotland is playing its best rugby of the millenium and was the North Hemisphere nation closest to make to WC semi-finals. He built a great team at Clermont and is doing the same thing right now.
Clearly, some Scottish fans don't now what it's like to go through 4 years of boring and losing rugby under a Saint-André. When your team plays offensive and entairtaining rugby, you should be content with it.

 

[jomjom]

Clearly, some Scottish fans don't now what it's like to go through 4 years of boring and losing rugby under a Saint-André. When your team plays offensive and entairtaining rugby, you should be content with it.

Errr... no, they don't. They've had to settle themselves with 16 years of losing rugby. I don't think it's fair to say "you should be content". Yes Scotland are playing more exciting entertaining rugby but the fact of the matter is that they've now lost 9 in a row, and this is under their new coach who is a recognized good coach. It's easy to see why one would be frustrated, especially when there are a lot of quality players in the Scottish side.

I think it's a leadership issue, obviously the mentality/psychology that that they carry doesn't help but for me last night Laidlaw really displayed what a rubbish captain he is. He needs to go - but the problem is, is there anyone to fill his boots!?

 

[Saint4805]

Errr... no, they don't. They've had to settle themselves with 16 years of losing rugby. I don't think it's fair to say "you should be content". Yes Scotland are playing more exciting entertaining rugby but the fact of the matter is that they've now lost 9 in a row, and this is under their new coach who is a recognized good coach. It's easy to see why one would be frustrated, especially when there are a lot of quality players in the Scottish side.

I think it's a leadership issue, obviously the mentality/psychology that that they carry doesn't help but for me last night Laidlaw really displayed what a rubbish captain he is. He needs to go - but the problem is, is there anyone to fill his boots!?

I agree there is a leadership issue but it's not just down to the captain. There is a lack of leaders on the field in general. Laidlaw put in a decent performance yesterday and we have to trust VC that he is keeping Hidalgo-Clyne out on merit. As far as I was aware, Laidlaw is not the first choice captain but has been deputising long term for Grant Gilchrist who is a more natural leader but has been marred by injury. Josh Strauss might have been another candidate but he can't get into the side.

 

[YoungScud]

Here we go sack the coach, you will be asking for the whole team to be replaced with the U20s next. You lost 1 game grow up FFS it was only a few days ago you were saying how great Scotland are.

A quick check of the OP's other posts would have shown you he's a pretty consistently a wet blanket when it comes to Scotland. Oh, and actually we lost two games. However, I agree it's insane to even consider sacking Cotter.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes but the 'small nation' argument doesn't wash when Wales and Ireland are consistently competing for the 6N ***le.

I actually think that Scotland and England suffer from the similar mindset issues in that they seem to struggle to get the most out of their players on the international stage against the top sides. The only difference is that England have a bit better quality and more strength in depth in their squad which allows them to stay in the mix but when you look at how well their club sides are doing in Europe they should probably be running away with the 6N.

You're comparing apples and oranges. Scotland have 38,000 registered players, while Italy have nearly 80, 000. Wales have 50,000 and Ireland 153,000, so even player numbers aren't the whole story. Ireland and wales, though, have twice as many professional clubs as either of the other two, and that seems to me to be crucial. I'm not sure we can do anything about that, unless private money comes in in some quantity. It's hard to envisage that, so we're left with making a silk purse from a sow's ear. Scotland has never consistently dominated the domestic international scene. they've just had the occasional good year. It's worth bearing in mind we've only ever won 3 Grand Slams, and one of them was in the 1920s.

 

[McTallshort]

When I posted it you had only lost one

 

[YoungScud]

When I posted it you had only lost one

Point taken.

 

[Saint4805]

A quick check of the OP's other posts would have shown you he's a pretty consistently a wet blanket when it comes to Scotland. Oh, and actually we lost two games. However, I agree it's insane to even consider sacking Cotter.

- - - Updated - - -

You're comparing apples and oranges. Scotland have 38,000 registered players, while Italy have nearly 80, 000. Wales have 50,000 and Ireland 153,000, so even player numbers aren't the whole story. Ireland and wales, though, have twice as many professional clubs as either of the other two, and that seems to me to be crucial. I'm not sure we can do anything about that, unless private money comes in in some quantity. It's hard to envisage that, so we're left with making a silk purse from a sow's ear. Scotland has never consistently dominated the domestic international scene. they've just had the occasional good year. It's worth bearing in mind we've only ever won 3 Grand Slams, and one of them was in the 1920s.

I take your point but if the number of registered players was such a good indicator then Italy should be streets ahead of both us and Wales. Having been to both Ireland and Wales I have to admit that players who make the national team are viewed as A list Hollywood stars whereas ours aren't quite seen in the same light which suggests that Ireland and Wales are unfortunately more passionate rugby nations than us.

 

[YoungScud]

I take your point but if the number of registered players was such a good indicator then Italy should be streets ahead of both us and Wales. Having been to both Ireland and Wales I have to admit that players who make the national team are viewed as A list Hollywood stars whereas ours aren't quite seen in the same light which suggests that Ireland and Wales are unfortunately more passionate rugby nations than us.

I did say it wasn't the whole story. I think having only two pro teams is much more of an issue, and that's kind of borne out by the fact that it's Scotland and Italy who are the whipping boys consistently. I love this game and always have, but I've long since accepted that isn't a universal view in Scotland, nor is it ever likely to be. As I said before, Scotland has the occasional stunning result, even a string of them, but we can't replicate that over any real period of time, and professionalism hasn't helped that. The thought also occurs that, per capita, we're actually considerably worse off than Italy in terms of player participation, and considerably worse off than Wales and especially Ireland.