Champions Cup - Pool 5, Round 4 (Treviso, Northampton, Ospreys, Racing Metro)

[Big Ewis]

Saturday 13th December 2014, KO 15:15 (local)
Franklin's Gardens, Northampton
Referee: Pascal Gauzere

Saturday 13th December 2014, KO 18:15 (local)
MMArena, Le Mans, Le Mans
Referee: Greg Garner
​

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Revenge!!

 

[Big Ewis]

yes Racing should get this one at least by 3-4. Dunno if Sexton's back from injury and Dulin I'm sure still sidelined.
Racing produced a fantastic first half last week especially up front and it's not a given they'll start this one the same way. I hope Thomas comes back and scores a double, and this time Racing ought to conclude their opportunities out wide, they've left quite a bunch of points in the past couple of weeks in both Top14 and here.
This one's for the taking, the Ospreys are good but Racing should be better. The rough one for Racing is Saints away.

 

[Every Time Ref]

I was wondering when watching the game at Ospreys, to what extent was that Racing's first choice, and how much did it affect how they played? Obviously they played a very powerful, forward-heavy kind of game, I couldn't help thinking that Sexton would give them the ability to vary their game a bit and bring the backs in more (even playing outside Phillips ... ) - was he just being rested after the internationals or what? Obviously no Roberts, although he wouldn't have altered that game plan much, again - was he rested? Or his he usually second choice behind Dumoulin? I actually thought Roberts was really good over the international window, best I've seen him play for a while (maybe that's just down to Biggar's form).

Don't Teddy Thomas and Juan Imhoff play for Racing as well? Surely they'd add some serious flair to the backline as well?

EDIT:

Dunno if Sexton's back from injury

I hope Thomas comes back and scores a double

Didn't see this - I should pay more attention

 

[Big Ewis]

I was wondering when watching the game at Ospreys, to what extent was that Racing's first choice, and how much did it affect how they played? Obviously they played a very powerful, forward-heavy kind of game, I couldn't help thinking that Sexton would give them the ability to vary their game a bit and bring the backs in more (even playing outside Phillips ... ) - was he just being rested after the internationals or what? Obviously no Roberts, although he wouldn't have altered that game plan much, again - was he rested? Or his he usually second choice behind Dumoulin? I actually thought Roberts was really good over the international window, best I've seen him play for a while (maybe that's just down to Biggar's form).

Don't Teddy Thomas and Juan Imhoff play for Racing as well? Surely they'd add some serious flair to the backline as well?

EDIT:


Didn't see this - I should pay more attention

attention is an expensive commodity though, not everyone can afford it.

To answer your mestion quarks, Jamie Roberts has been ...how should I put this without having stars appear in for the words I type...maybe useless works adequately. I'd add a rude adjective before that word to emphasize...he plays for country, not for French clubs, and this conversation stops right abou..*HERE*.
Alex Dumoulin has sent first picks fishing for France, and we're not exactly lacking options at midfield, 12 or 13. He's had (whether prematurely, surely) lots of French fans conjure out the magical name of Yannick Jauzion at his sight this season. He can create space, makes the right pass often, plays while standing, can serve as a battering ram 13, is excellent and emphatic defensively, and knows how to manage space so he's got both power and skill.

About the Racing attack, they've got a huge pack and brilliant backs (we're talking the Imhoff, Andreu, Thomas, usually Dulin...) but the halfback pair just wasn't there on that day. Goosen is a fresh young talent with promises and very good versatility but he's still very young and doesn't offer all of the many sharp qualities and fulfill the all-encompassing role a modern 10 should, especially at this level.
And Mike Phillips has just been brutally bad lately, he'll basically jog in at the ruck and go left...then right....then left....then right...nothing like Machenaud's commitment and dynamism.

Machenaud + Sexton would be a dream combination today, but internal turmoil last year at the club, injuries on and off, int'l duty every so often, Sexton's body in France but head in Ireland...etc...lots of factors have contributed to the backline's only alternative current performances; on/off/on/off; and they haven't been able to fulfill the promises entirely, although they've scored some stupendous tries this year. Dulin has REALLY been missed, as I think about it now (early in the season VS the past handful of games).
I'm sure you're aware Jonathan Sexton's Top 14 story has largely been a big disappointment.

 

[Every Time Ref]

I was aware Sexton wasn't really hitting the heights, but he's not been absolute trash, has he? Just a bit meh.

Dumoulin does look good. Jauzion may be a bit premature, but he does look very very complete. That horrible drop aside ...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I was wondering when watching the game at Ospreys, to what extent was that Racing's first choice, and how much did it affect how they played? Obviously they played a very powerful, forward-heavy kind of game, I couldn't help thinking that Sexton would give them the ability to vary their game a bit and bring the backs in more (even playing outside Phillips ... ) - was he just being rested after the internationals or what? Obviously no Roberts, although he wouldn't have altered that game plan much, again - was he rested? Or his he usually second choice behind Dumoulin? I actually thought Roberts was really good over the international window, best I've seen him play for a while (maybe that's just down to Biggar's form).

Don't Teddy Thomas and Juan Imhoff play for Racing as well? Surely they'd add some serious flair to the backline as well?

EDIT:


Didn't see this - I should pay more attention

attention is an expensive commodity though, not everyone can afford it.

To answer your mestion quarks, Jamie Roberts has been ...how should I put this without having stars appear in for the words I type...maybe useless works adequately. I'd add a rude adjective before that word to emphasize...he plays for country, not for French clubs, and this conversation stops right abou..*HERE*.
Alex Dumoulin has sent first picks fishing for France, and we're not exactly lacking options at midfield, 12 or 13. He's had (whether prematurely, surely) lots of French fans conjure out the magical name of Yannick Jauzion at his sight this season. He can create space, makes the right pass often, plays while standing, can serve as a battering ram 13, is excellent and emphatic defensively, and knows how to manage space so he's got both power and skill.

About the Racing attack, they've got a huge pack and brilliant backs (we're talking the Imhoff, Andreu, Thomas, usually Dulin...) but the halfback pair just wasn't there on that day. Goosen is a fresh young talent with promises and very good versatility but he's still very young and doesn't offer all of the many sharp qualities and fulfill the all-encompassing role a modern 10 should, especially at this level.
And Mike Phillips has just been brutally bad lately, he'll basically jog in at the ruck and go left...then right....then left....then right...nothing like Machenaud's commitment and dynamism.

Machenaud + Sexton would be a dream combination today, but internal turmoil last year at the club, injuries on and off, int'l duty every so often, Sexton's body in France but head in Ireland...etc...lots of factors have contributed to the backline's only alternative current performances; on/off/on/off; and they haven't been able to fulfill the promises entirely, although they've scored some stupendous tries this year. Dulin has REALLY been missed, as I think about it now (early in the season VS the past handful of games).
I'm sure you're aware Jonathan Sexton's Top 14 story has largely been a big disappointment.

Yeah, this is an accurate picture. Very much a 2nd string backline bar Dumoulin with Machenaud, Sexton and Dulin the big ommisions and Thomas' ability to score off nothing as well as Chavancy's assuredness at 13 as well actually. Pretty much boxing with 1 hand tied TBH. Racing is still a relatively new face on the current scene though and while the pack is now a settled beast the backline is still very much a work in progress and it was progressing rather well actually but for a mass of casualties at the back spread throughout and not just limited to testing depth in one area of the backline- just very disruptive. And I am not counting Szarzewski only coming back just now. We've been playing without our captain and most experienced player of late.

On Sexton and Goosen, despite not being the same player that plays for Joe Schmidt what he does bring that Goosen doesn't ATM is close to 90% accuracy at goal and just tactical nouse. We'd be fine with Sexton playing at only 60/70% but making his shots at goal and I understand some of that % gone missing for racing is a difference in team dynamics. At the end of the day Goosen is a young guy that has had only 1 season of Super rugby and 2 years of injury before joining Racing and is slowly building into it. He is very much a 10 for harder pitches and more open games though and that is why I am kinda glad he is in Europe; working on getting the other aspects of his game up to speed as it were.

My hope is we get our personel back and click in time for the away game against the Saints and keep it going.

 

[Every Time Ref]

That was a fearsome-looking pack (for 60-odd minutes), I can imagine they can be a hell of a team if and when that backline gets together and clicks they could be phenomenal. How are you going in the league?

Phillips is awful nowadays, and he wasn't ever much good to begin with in my view, I pity you if he's your scrum-half, I really do...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

That was a fearsome-looking pack (for 60-odd minutes), I can imagine they can be a hell of a team if and when that backline gets together and clicks they could be phenomenal. How are you going in the league?

Phillips is awful nowadays, and he wasn't ever much good to begin with in my view, I pity you if he's your scrum-half, I really do...

Doing well enough; in at 4th ATM and closing on 3rd (though we aren't playing as well as earlier due to disruptions for the most part). Clermont and Toulon clear leaders still as we have a few issues but really should've/could've been pushing them if we won two games we really should have won in the same manner as per the away match against the Ospreys mostly due to a ton of 3 pointers gone begging and/or just a lacklustre display in parts by individuals.

 

[Big Ewis]

one of the telling stats for Racing is, for such a large-budget high profile Top 14 team, they don't have a single kicker in the best 15 goal scorers of the league. And their best is Goosen anyways, who hasn't been a landmark of consistency. With Sexton on and off, and again the fact they always have so many absentees (int'ls, injuries...) they definitely do suffer from a lack of 'groundness' or solidity of their first team.
Again:
you've got big bucks going to Lydiate, Roberts and Phillips who've been absent or utter feces and have enjoyed being at the Louvre and caffés more than in Stade Yves-du-Manoir. Captain and WC-finalist Szar out the entire season. Superstar and major off-season move Brice Dulin, the best 15 in the country, out major lengths. And then the Sexton story, and the fact half the team goes missing in various locations every so often for Test Rugby.

Then there are larger factors since we're at it:
Racing were in the Pro D2, just some time ago, and have yet to find a strong grip amongst other initiated giants (domestic or European). Fairly new coaching cast...we're only witnessing this season I think the end of the "work in progress" stage and entering a "now we need results" era. And still today, I don't think they're all the way legit. When the no.1 most paid guy in the country and starting flyhalf has been looking out the window longing for home the entire season and is playing this current one knowing he's returning for a fact towards June - Racing are waiting for Rémi Talès and more stability this whole time.

Not to make this a racial thing, but the entire Celtic bunch has been nothing short of a disaster over two years, and no Sexton wasn't awful obviously; but this big bucks adventure has been a very useful Guinea pig and experiment for the rest of the league. Yes, do acquire the best current players you can, but watch out: there are conditions and factors for each case...you can't just watch, say, Kieran Read on TV and copy-paste that into your team. "I want *that* playing for me". There are vital human factors, alas.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I do very much see RM92 as still a work in progress though. My own frame of reference is Super rugby and I can now say it takes new teams 6 to 8 years to find their stride- Toulon aren't the norm IMO; things just 'clicked' there. The Cheetahs had their best season in 2013, the Lions, and Force in 2014. I wager the Rebels will have their best only in 2016. It's no coincidence that these have been the least dangerous sides as they've been the newest to be added and the ones with the most flux ITO playing personel. This is what, Racing's 4th year in the Top14? While the pack is pretty settled with a known backbone now, we are only now seeing the backline taking shape and it is coming to light who is fitting in and what is still needed to really be seen as a team nevermind a team pushing for some sort of silverware. We'll do better this year in both competitions but I see us as making a legit ***le campaign only in 2 years time. Part of my decision to adopt RM92 as my Euro team was the fact that they were a new team (well, newly promoted) and were even then showing ambition and signing some of my fav players (Chabal, F Steyn, El mago).

 

[Big Ewis]

yeah, just meant this isn't a year we can just say if they fail "oh well they're still in the building process". They're 4th in the wild Top 14 and head of their pool and unbeaten in the Euro Cup, having beaten the English champs and it wasn't all that tight. The conjuncture is such that they can't blame time this year, they have to fulfill a certain amount of expectation an realize a strong season on both fronts.

The teams you mention I'm sure don't have the lineup Racing have, which as we all agree on this page is nothing short of formidable on paper.

As for Toulon, the major difference is Boudjellal picked the right guys, (not home-sick cry-babies and salary-devouring mercenaries) and Laporte was the coach there, one of the most successful coaches in int'l Test Rugby. They picked "right" each time, and it's no mystery whatsoever, their success. It did take them some time, they'd constantly lose to other better teams around in the Top 14, but they did come through eventually.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I do love how the RM92 news homepage wishes players happy birthdays and comments on line-ups and results for upcoming and completed Top14 matches but has no word for ECC action;

http://www.racing-metro92.com/en/Equipe_Pro/News-48.html

 

[Big Ewis]

Still no Sexton. Still no sex....ton. Ahahah, funny.

Dulin back though, and part of a back three of himself+Thomas+Imhoff. Fire in the back, hot anal action to follow.
Resting Dumoulin altogether. Pretty nice bench overall with a fairly expected starting xv. Just not sure why you'd want to remove Andreu, especially after last week's game. Surely just shifting the roster around, same as Roberts at 12.

- - - Updated - - -

uhm...sorry stormer, I hope you don't take this as a defiant affront. We posted simultaneously. Our posts are like twin brothers: they're twins but one still came out first over the other. Which means of course one is necessarily the evil one and the other the good one. The metaphysical purgatory battles continue in the epic Racing threads.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

No problems Big Evis. We seem to have a knack for simultaneously posting the same posts. I deleted mine seeing as yours looks prettier.

Very strange the wholesale rotation in the backline bar Goosen. I understand some of it was forced but still, quite weird. Not that I'm complaining with all of Dulin, Thomas and Machenaud coming in starting I feel on the whole this is a better backline than last weekends but the continuous disruptions... I am all for rotation but feel someone needs to sit down and discuss with the selectors what that actually means and how best to implement it..

 

[Big Ewis]

but you've forever destroyed one of the twins, and who knows maybe mine was the evil one what have you DONNNNE.

Well I dunno how it is in SR, I'm guessing much more stable than in the Top 14, but as you know the Top 14 has become increasingly more demanding over the years and teams have started buying big names and have loaded rosters and the more it goes the more they've noticed they needed the depth to claim any semblance of a high profile club status. "Turning the roster" literally from the French (faire tourner) or 'rotating' the lineup is a classic Top 14 occurrence and the important is to do it judiciously. Clermont in particular do a fantastic job at it all the time and guys come in and out seamlessly.

Here Dulin makes the starting lineup, I'm guessing the physios and staff feel he's completely apt and ready to go. The pack is basically the same and that backline needed tweaking big time, and guys need minutes (Imhoff for Andreu notably). It's not like moving Phillips out is an earth-shaking move and at least they've got the same starting 10, the rest of that backline will work something out, with Jobberts to be insipid as usual in ciel et blanc.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

In SR most of the teams can't truly afford to rotate players on a constant basis as the drop in class is just too noticable for most of the teams but the Chiefs in particular do a stellar job at it but it's never more than 2 or 3 changes from game to game; more like slowly and judiciously turning a spit roast than casually flipping burger patties.

I am.. almost bewildered that there is no comments here from at least Ospreys or Saints supporters. I was under the impression the ECC was the pinnacle of club rugby and in this pool there are 3 teams still alive. Not sure what to make of it TBH. If it weren't for @Every Time Ref there would be only you and me; so in this thread a few posts from a Bath, a semi-Toulon and a semi-RM92 supporter only. Bewildering.

 

[TommiG88]

Hopefully another bonus point for the saints. Going to be at the liberty stadium in the next round. Hope we go into that game with confidence and still top of the group.

 

[Every Time Ref]

If it weren't for @Every Time Ref there would be only you and me

I feel quite the gooseberry.

It is an interesting pool, not least because Treviso's presence makes it a very good bet that one of the second-placed teams will come from this group. Also, I'd have thought that one of the Welsh regions Vs a team with a few Welsh internationals would be of interest to any Welsh supporter, not just Ospreys

 

[Big Ewis]

oh yeah you're right stormer. I kind of.. just post regardless of who's here, unless I'm flat out talking to myself, which has happened mind you :lol: . Too bad there isn't more activity, that's for sure.

About SR and rotating, it's just a different system. In France, the Top 14 is the priority all things considered, France has become secondary to it whether we admit it or not, and there's always been that ultra strong attachment to local clubs anyways, that culture. In SR, teams don't play nearly as many games, don't have nearly as much pressure (Top 14 relegation, all that) and at the end of the day I reiterate my outsider's sentiment: it's basically an interesting platform from which selectors pick their guys for national duty. That's the gist of it, huh.