Can we say Scotland are actually back now?

[ncurd]

Well before this tournament I was quite disparaging of them they've had so many false dawns and preformed poorly in the tournament that I'd given up hope of them coming back. However I said a 3rd place finish (with 3 wins) should be the least they aim for and they should do that as I can't imagine them loosing to Italy and should get the BP win. There is a scenario where they'd end up 4th with 3 wins (relies on Wales or France winning both games and getting a BP) but fair do's to them.

Lets remember regardless of what happens against England though, this if the first time they've competed for the Triple Crown since 1996 (they've managed to get two victories against home nation sides a few times since but they'd either drawn or lost a game before their 2nd win). That's a pretty big achievement and its been a long time since they've been in the hunt for the actual championship in week 4.

Some people suggested the tournament would better a 4nations with promotion/relegation but I think Scotland have at least proved this season they still deserve a seat at the big boy table. The problem is the 6th nation.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Well before this tournament I was quite disparaging of them they've had so many false dawns and preformed poorly in the tournament that I'd given up hope of them coming back. However I said a 3rd place finish (with 3 wins) should be the least they aim for and they should do that as I can't imagine them loosing to Italy and should get the BP win. There is a scenario where they'd end up 4th with 3 wins (relies on Wales or France winning both games and getting a BP) but fair do's to them.

Lets remember regardless of what happens against England though, this if the first time they've competed for the Triple Crown since 1996 (they've managed to get two victories against home nation sides a few times since but they'd either drawn or lost a game before their 2nd win). That's a pretty big achievement and its been a long time since they've been in the hunt for the actual championship in week 4.

Some people suggested the tournament would better a 4nations with promotion/relegation but I think Scotland have at least proved this season they still deserve a seat at the big boy table. The problem is the 6th nation.

Their forwards are much more canny and streetwise than they used to be. Lots of completely illegal stuff and getting away with it. Having said that neither Ireland nor Wales looked that bothered by the Scotland game, the intensity was certainly lower than when they played France and England respectively. The Scots are better definitely but I will still reserve judgement until they actually show consistent form.

 

[Goodey]

They are a bit like the Ireland side of the mid 2000s, contenders for any one game but I doubt they'll be consistent enough to win a championship soon.

 

[Peat]

I will take them seriously next 6N but, until its backed up next year, no one knows for sure.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I was dismissive of them too which has resulted in an eggy face! They still have a way to go before they are to be a top two side in my opinion, they've become a very good home side though, wouldn't fear them away from Murrayfield yet... Hopefully they prove me wrong in two weeks!

 

[munstermuffin]

Going on it Scotland are going the right way but still on the journey. Need few more big wins

 

[mosfeldt]

A 3rd place finish is pretty respectable. Obviously they could easily come 2nd and who knows, maybe even 1st. I don't think England will be as caught out as they were against Italy, but you never know, maybe an insane passion driven start by Scotland seeing a Hogg hat-trick could be enough to rattle England and secure them a Triple Crown. '83 was their last victory in Twickers. As I said before the Wales match, records meant to be broken... Unlikely, but then again who would've predicted Japan v South Africa, Italy's first half against England. Rugby is fickle like that.

As the OP says the fact that we're even considering the possibility of a Scottish Triple Crown and maybe maybe even a Championship says huge amounts. Scotland have improved massively under Vern Cotter (remind me again why is he leaving - was he booted out?) and I'm genuinely excited to see where they head within the next few years. Scotland at Murrayfield is definitely no longer a given. Will be very curious to see how they do against the SH sides this year.

 

[corny]

Who knows what happens when Cotter leaves. Townsend could come in and **** it all up or take it to a new level. We can't know.

For this 6N's though they're very much in the hunt for the championship. On the evidence of what both teams have produced thus far its a toss up with England. They'll beat Italy of course and if chasing a big score for points difference they certainly have players out wide to score a lot.

So yeah they're back........ for this championship.

 

[McTallshort]

Wins against Ireland and Wales show that they are much much better than previous years and they are scoring some great tries which is something they have always struggled with so lets hope so.....obviously they will hopefully fall apart in 2 weeks.

 

[Goodey]

'83 was their last victory in Twickers. As I said before the Wales match, records meant to be broken... Unlikely, but then again who would've predicted Japan v South Africa, Italy's first half against England. Rugby is fickle like that.

Think I'm right in saying this is the first Scottish team who all haven't been alive to see Scotland win there. Jim Hamilton the last one.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Kind of back but they have a scary lack of depth at fly half and fullback (although a young ace Kinghorn should be hitting his stride next year). Their forwards are also pretty basic, with no flair (except Barclay). But something faintly extraordinary has gone on with Scotlands youth development in the past 5-10 years and they are very handy in the 20-24 age group.

 

[Goodey]

Scottish fans, would you rather

a) do as expected, lose to England away but beat Italy at home with some nice tries
b) win the triple crown next game but then fall apart and get smashed by Italy in week 5

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Scottish fans, would you rather

a) do as expected, lose to England away but beat Italy at home with some nice tries
b) win the triple crown next game but then fall apart and get smashed by Italy in week 5

Of course b). Italia!

Being the first country to lose the tournament by a bonus point after failing to pick one up against Italy with a last minute kick from ex-Scot Tommaso Allan sounds a very Scottish way to lose. It's almost written in the stars!

Triumphing and immediately firing your coach thereby bamboozling half the country is a very Scottish way to win though!

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Scottish fans, would you rather

a) do as expected, lose to England away but beat Italy at home with some nice tries
b) win the triple crown next game but then fall apart and get smashed by Italy in week 5

Silly question, it will be B every time. Lose heavily to a team they have lost to before or stop England beating the winning streak record, denying England the grand slam, potentially denying England the 6N at all, denying England the triple crown, beatin England at Twickers for the first time in decades... I think pretty much any team in the world except the ABs would take B.

 

[ALJ]

They look very good this year but I think the acid test will be next time around.

Once they're taken more seriously, the analysis will intensify as will the opposition attitude toward playing them.
Plus there's that second season syndrome where you have to live up to the previous year's achievements and with only two home games.

 

[Saint4805]

It's quite conceivable that we go to Dublin and Cardiff next year and lose then people will claim it was another false dawn which shouldn't be the case unless we get soundly beaten. There needs to be some acceptance that the gap is narrowing and that home advantage can really be the difference between winning and losing. Losing two tough away games doesn't translate into a false dawn.

 

[ALJ]

It's quite conceivable that we go to Dublin and Cardiff next year and lose then people will claim it was another false dawn which shouldn't be the case unless we get soundly beaten. There needs to be some acceptance that the gap is narrowing and that home advantage can really be the difference between winning and losing. Losing two tough away games doesn't translate into a false dawn.

That's all fair but it depends on how you lose (if you do) and how you perform overall.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

It's quite conceivable that we go to Dublin and Cardiff next year and lose then people will claim it was another false dawn which shouldn't be the case unless we get soundly beaten. There needs to be some acceptance that the gap is narrowing and that home advantage can really be the difference between winning and losing. Losing two tough away games doesn't translate into a false dawn.

There will be 2 tours between now and then. Last 6 Nations England apparently didn't deserve it and were lucky, that was followed by a lucky win against Australia that we didn't deserve, then by the 2nd Aussie game maybe we did and by the 3rd we were a good side. England's reputation was built up more after the last 6N than during it where it was mostly dismissed as a flash in the pan. Scotland have yet to have successful international tours against T1 nations and you will have plenty of time to prove it's not a false dawn. However Scotland again failing to put away T1 nations in the tours and then coming back to the 6N and being beaten, well if that isn't the definition of a false dawn then what exactly is? Winning more when you have the home games in your favour and then losing everything else is not good enough to claim Scotland are back, merely that they are better and competitive now.

 

[Saint4805]

There will be 2 tours between now and then. Last 6 Nations England apparently didn't deserve it and were lucky, that was followed by a lucky win against Australia that we didn't deserve, then by the 2nd Aussie game maybe we did and by the 3rd we were a good side. England's reputation was built up more after the last 6N than during it where it was mostly dismissed as a flash in the pan. Scotland have yet to have successful international tours against T1 nations and you will have plenty of time to prove it's not a false dawn. However Scotland again failing to put away T1 nations in the tours and then coming back to the 6N and being beaten, well if that isn't the definition of a false dawn then what exactly is? Winning more when you have the home games in your favour and then losing everything else is not good enough to claim Scotland are back, merely that they are better and competitive now.

That's all well and good but we'll be missing quite a few of our best players who'll be on Lions duty when we go to Australia. They'll be at full strength so it's hardly going to be a progress defining series. Strength in depth is an issue that can't be fixed overnight.

The term false dawn is banded around without anyone defining what our objectives are. Currently fifth in the world rankings pretty much confirms the progress that has been made but it would be a big leap forward if we are to start beating T1 sides more regularly than we have been.

 

[psychic duck]

I was dismissive of them too which has resulted in an eggy face! They still have a way to go before they are to be a top two side in my opinion, they've become a very good home side though, wouldn't fear them away from Murrayfield yet... Hopefully they prove me wrong in two weeks!

Why dismissive? They had an impressive November series which included some really nice rugby too. They've brought in some very good acquisitions from overseas in Nel and Strauss, and additionally are now helped have players experiencing success in high end European fixtures at domestic level. The age profile of the squad is pretty healthy too and don't look to have too many retirements ahead of 2019 so should continue to be a force. The last 6 months have seen undoubtedly the best rugby Scotland have played in the the 21st century, and also seen Glasgow finally perform and win important games in Europe and break their duck of reaching the knockouts.