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Let me ask a simple question just because I'm interested
We all know that football or rugby clubs are driven along by the hopes, dreams and aspirations of the fans and owners of a club. If as often happens in football you were a Guy with money to burn & were looking for a Welsh club from a lower division that's ripe to invest a lot of big money into, develop and push up the tables into cups and Europe. Putting your own club bias aside for a moment which Welsh clubs would you invest in and why?? And which would you not??
 
Let me ask a simple question just because I’m interested
We all know that football or rugby clubs are driven along by the hopes, dreams and aspirations of the fans and owners of a club. If as often happens in football you were a Guy with money to burn & were looking for a Welsh club from a lower division that’s ripe to invest a lot of big money into, develop and push up the tables into cups and Europe. Putting your own club bias aside for a moment which Welsh clubs would you invest in and why?? And which would you not??

I think it would be completely irresponsible for me to pump money into a small premiership club, for it to lose the money on players that it can't afford and not be sustainable model in the long term. Mainly because, when I leave, it'll struggle to maintain that level of playing without a benefactor.

I think the comparison between football clubs and rugby clubs is a strange one, as the league systems, sponsors and income streams are very different. As are the fans and football culture. You can start at the bottom and go all the way to the top in football. Also, take Cardiff City for example, they have a huge following from the Valleys.

If I would have to invest, it would be on the premise that it would to be develop facilities and a community game, much like what Stan Thomas is doing with Merthyr. In Wales, it would be important to know that I would not be able to invest in a professional team without the approval of the WRU. With that, there's no "climbing" the leagues option to the top flight. I could only get to the semi-pro principality premiership with a club.

If I had all the money in the world (and I couldn't invest in Cardiff Blues) then I'd try to develop a pro side in North Wales. There's a good following of the Wales U21 there, and there seems to be a good player base to. It would have an aim of joining the other 4 pro welsh clubs in the pro 12.
 
So are you saying to me that your better keeping your money in the bank rather than invest in a club like Bridgend, Ponty or like sized clubs because they will never be allowed to reach the top??
 
So are you saying to me that your better keeping your money in the bank rather than invest in a club like Bridgend, Ponty or like sized clubs because they will never be allowed to reach the top??

I said if I were to spend it, I need to be clear in what I am investing in and what that investment is for. The choice is a community semi-pro club or a pro club. The way I spend that money would be very different for each.

The semi pro clubs cannot reach the top because that's the way the WRU is organised. Which was agreed by the WRU members when the new structure was put into place.

I'm not sure what you are getting at? That I'd invest in a passionate set of fans? No. I'd invest in a largely populated area, where the likelihood of gaining decent gates and income streams would mean I could complete in the modern rugby world. Look at what's happening at Wasps.
 
As I've said before my knowledge of the Welsh structure is very limited so I'm not knocking individual clubs Beit Bridgend Ponty Cardiff or anyone, but that said I'm trying to understand a structure that would choose to deter any potential investor wishing to invest his/her money in clubs that are part of what is a rapidly growing sport and the logic and thinking behind people creating a race so fixed only a chosen few could ever win?? To me that's not only, not sporting its cheating. As well as being anti competition. What's the point in any other club existing if there is nothing to play for and nothing to be achieved by winning? I probably come across as being a bit thick here but I just don't get it. Yes I know the clubs had problems and believe me we at Bristol know better than most all about that sort of thing, having lost almost everything we had including our beloved Memorial stadium. But I'm convinced if we had the same structure as now exists in Wales we would never have been in a position to attract the guy who eventually bailed us out. It seems to me totally wrong to prevent any hope any other club may have of attracting a wealthy backer and being able to compete with all. But that's just my humble opinion.
It just aint Cricket.
 
We tried that system though Alias. When rugby went professional, the clubs with benefactors were pumping huge amounts of private money into the game. As the income streams weren't high, despite very competitive teams, the debts were too high and this resulted in millions of pounds of debt. Cardiff were one of the first to make this mistake, they still have something like 7 million of debt they are paying now. Llanelli and Newport were also heavily invested in and that resulted in a wage they couldn't pay. More recently, Cuddy helped the Ospreys become Galacticos, but realised pumping money into a team wasn't sustainable. Ospreys have a very good youth system now.

The WRU member clubs voted for this type of organisation as they knew it was the only way to make welsh domestic rugby sustainable. The mistake that happened was that it was rushed, no market research was carried out, and the men with the money, or the clubs with massive historical debts got the most say. For example Cardiff RFC (who own Cardiff Blues) would have said, hold on, I like the idea of your system, but who will pay all of our debts if you wind us up? Welsh rugby is very complex and there is a reason we have the teams we do. The first 5 teams were relatively competitive, but because one was still required £1 million a year investment from a private benefactor, the benefactor left as he couldn't afford it, the WRU took control of it and closed it down. It's left a rugby playing area with no pro club.

Sorry for sounding a little icy about this Alias, it's just there are many here in Wales who don't understand the situation and suggesting changes to teams very willy nilly without thinking of why we are at this point or thinking of feasible way forwards. For example, I hate Cardiff 'Blues' as a concept and I'm form Cardiff. It's marketing suicide with Chelsea Fc, Auckland, Bedford etc. I'd be happy for a brave businessman to change it to Cardiff 'something' or even South Glamorgan 'something' depending on whether he/she wanted to invested in a traditional brand name or actually try tempt in people from Aberdare, Merthyr, Beddau etc.
 
We tried that system though Alias. When rugby went professional, the clubs with benefactors were pumping huge amounts of private money into the game. As the income streams weren't high, despite very competitive teams, the debts were too high and this resulted in millions of pounds of debt. Cardiff were one of the first to make this mistake, they still have something like 7 million of debt they are paying now. Llanelli and Newport were also heavily invested in and that resulted in a wage they couldn't pay. More recently, Cuddy helped the Ospreys become Galacticos, but realised pumping money into a team wasn't sustainable. Ospreys have a very good youth system now.

The WRU member clubs voted for this type of organisation as they knew it was the only way to make welsh domestic rugby sustainable. The mistake that happened was that it was rushed, no market research was carried out, and the men with the money, or the clubs with massive historical debts got the most say. For example Cardiff RFC (who own Cardiff Blues) would have said, hold on, I like the idea of your system, but who will pay all of our debts if you wind us up? Welsh rugby is very complex and there is a reason we have the teams we do. The first 5 teams were relatively competitive, but because one was still required £1 million a year investment from a private benefactor, the benefactor left as he couldn't afford it, the WRU took control of it and closed it down. It's left a rugby playing area with no pro club.

Sorry for sounding a little icy about this Alias, it's just there are many here in Wales who don't understand the situation and suggesting changes to teams very willy nilly without thinking of why we are at this point or thinking of feasible way forwards. For example, I hate Cardiff 'Blues' as a concept and I'm form Cardiff. It's marketing suicide with Chelsea Fc, Auckland, Bedford etc. I'd be happy for a brave businessman to change it to Cardiff 'something' or even South Glamorgan 'something' depending on whether he/she wanted to invested in a traditional brand name or actually try tempt in people from Aberdare, Merthyr, Beddau etc.[/QUOTE


You mention Cardiff had 7 Million in debt, why was Peter the Pieman allowed to have control of the Blues when he was responsible for that amount of debt ? Also why is the other pieman allowed to pump tens of thousands into Merthyr it's completely unfair to the rest of the clubs in Merthyrs league.
I suspect that the answer to both is the WRUin allow Cardiff/Blues/Merthyr and the piemen to do what they want because at the end of the day it's all designed to slap Ponty down and act as a warning to other clubs who may of thought of taking the same stance as Ponty.
What people outside of Wales may not realise is that for decades now starting well before professionalism pieman number one Peter Thomas and Cardiff RFC lured players to the club with boot money, something most other clubs could not or would not do, it was completely imoral and gave them an unfair advantage. More recently there have been verbal spats between Ponty and the Blues, the WRUin have settled this by not allowing the clubs to compete in the BIC, it was a major income source for us and other clubs who have a reasonable support base like Ebbw, so this decision above all; else was designed to put us in our place, however not content to leave it at that the WRUin have allowed pieman number 2 Stan Thomas to pump untold amounts of money into Merthyr RFC in the division below the Welsh prem, knowing full well that with an open cheque book Merthyr would firstly go for as many of Ponty's players as possible and add to that with the pick of players from other prem clubs, this they have done decimating the Ponty squad and resulting in us loosing 3 on the bounce something that hasn't happened for years. This won't finish Ponty as a club even if we were to get relegated, there will always be a Ponty, but I suspect that should Pieman number 2 decide to pull out of Merthyr in the future they would end up bankrupt.
Does anybody out there think that this is fair ?
Why should the WRUin and the piemen be allowed to do this to us, systematically stripping us firstly of the BIC a major income source and then allowing Merthyr to approach and poach large numbers of our squad, so they we suffer in terms of league position.
I would add that nobody at Ponty feels any bitterness to the players that have gone Merthyrs way nor indeed to Merthyr RFC or supporters, we do however have a great deal of resentment toward the pieman and WRUin Gareth perfect hair Davies especially.
 
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One thing for sure the three of us will never sort it. I Understand the reasons for what has been done but disagree entirely with the result, There had to be a better way and one that wouldn't have built a huge wall between the haves and the have nots.. I Have sympathies with both sides especially clubs like Ponty which any reasonable sports fan would have to admit have been badly treated. It's unfair to the clubs involved, their staff players and the fans who over generations have invested their time, money and effort into their respective clubs only to see the WRU cut them off at the knees.
Being as there's not enough people on here voicing an opinion to make a worthwhile discussion I'm leaving it there. I'm out of here.
 
One thing for sure the three of us will never sort it. I Understand the reasons for what has been done but disagree entirely with the result, There had to be a better way and one that wouldn't have built a huge wall between the haves and the have nots.. I Have sympathies with both sides especially clubs like Ponty which any reasonable sports fan would have to admit have been badly treated. It's unfair to the clubs involved, their staff players and the fans who over generations have invested their time, money and effort into their respective clubs only to see the WRU cut them off at the knees.
Being as there's not enough people on here voicing an opinion to make a worthwhile discussion I'm leaving it there. I'm out of here.

No worries, but thanks anyway for your support.
 
Does anybody out there think that this is fair ?

Unsubstantiated conspiracy theories aside, yes. Rugby has been professional for 20 years now and Wales is a capitalist country, subject to UK and EU law. Why should an ambitious team be denied the opportunity to better themselves just to save the blushes of their competitors within the free market economy that is pro / semi-pro rugby? You seem unhappy to be sat outside the effective ring fence that the regions create, yet you seek to effectively ring fence Merthyr.

The club I support (Redruth RFC funnily enough) has a lot of similarities with Ponty. We're a small town in a very poor area with a much wealthier club 20 miles or so down the road who have cherry picked the best of the talent developed and / or identified by us since the advent of professionalism. I've long since made my peace that the challenge for every club is to make the best of the hand dealt to them - in Redruth's case, strong support and am proud that the club's custodians have done this and still manage to compete a level higher than they did at the advent of league rugby in England, against teams from much bigger towns and cities in much wealthier areas of the country.

The BIC is not the property of the PP or its member clubs, it is a competition that invites the WRU to enter 4 teams. In the past, they chose to give this opportunity to the PP, this season, they have chosen to follow the IRU's lead and give it to the regions.
 
Unsubstantiated conspiracy theories aside, yes. Rugby has been professional for 20 years now and Wales is a capitalist country, subject to UK and EU law. Why should an ambitious team be denied the opportunity to better themselves just to save the blushes of their competitors within the free market economy that is pro / semi-pro rugby? You seem unhappy to be sat outside the effective ring fence that the regions create, yet you seek to effectively ring fence Merthyr.

The club I support (Redruth RFC funnily enough) has a lot of similarities with Ponty. We're a small town in a very poor area with a much wealthier club 20 miles or so down the road who have cherry picked the best of the talent developed and / or identified by us since the advent of professionalism. I've long since made my peace that the challenge for every club is to make the best of the hand dealt to them - in Redruth's case, strong support and am proud that the club's custodians have done this and still manage to compete a level higher than they did at the advent of league rugby in England, against teams from much bigger towns and cities in much wealthier areas of the country.

The BIC is not the property of the PP or its member clubs, it is a competition that invites the WRU to enter 4 teams. In the past, they chose to give this opportunity to the PP, this season, they have chosen to follow the IRU's lead and give it to the regions.

Surely there should be a cap on expenditure, what happens when clubs overspend is that they expose themselves to bankruptcy if and when the financial backer pulls out and the clubs in lower leagues are most at danger of this. It sounds like Redruth RFC are a well run club, who operate within a given financial structure, clubs who start spending more than they have coming in due to a benevolent backer will have trouble when the backer pulls the plug, this has happened in Wales before and when you have a club such as Merthyr who don't get massive numbers through the gate but have wages which vastly exceed income it's a disaster waiting to happen Ponty are the best supported club in the Welsh prem and club shop and bar takings will be much higher than average in the league, we would not last a season if we paid Merthyrs current wage bill. To conclude the governing body should act to stop clubs spending exceeding their respective income the once great club Neath have only just avoided bankruptcy.

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This is from a survey undertaken 3 years ago and still nothing has changed, but shows I am not alone in this.

SURVEY OF RUGBY FANS BASED IN THE SOUTH WALES VALLEYS:

82.7% feel they do not identify with any of the existing regional sides. These fans pay to watch, on average, at least 5 matches of semi-professional or amateur rugby each season, but feel alienated from the elite, professional tier.
83.2% of these fans claim they would regularly attend the matches of a Valleys-based professional side.
AMONG FANS WHO IDENTIFY THEMSELVES AS SUPPORTERS OF ONE OR MORE OF THE EXISTING REGIONS:

51% are satisfied with regional rugby. Of those dissatisfied, the quality of the rugby played, the 'dilution' of traditional club loyalties, the disconnection from communities and the 'soul-less' nature of the modern stadia are cited as prime causes of their discontent.
Only 17% of those regional fans feel that Welsh rugby has become more 'enjoyable' since the advent of regional rugby.
CRUCIALLY, IN LIGHT OF THE WRU'S HINTS THAT A 'DEVELOPMENT REGION' MIGHT BE CREATED:

48% of existing regional rugby fans surveyed believe that a development region should represent the South Wales Valleys, with a further 16% undecided and only 36% opposed to the creation of a development region.
60% of valleys based fans felt that a Valleys based development side should concentrate on the development of younger players.
The fans' views dispel any notion that the answer to our problems is merely to boil down the number of professional players to still fewer numbers and to exert greater control over their wage demands through contracting them directly to the Union. Though it's easy to see how such a solution – fewer workers, lower wages and indentured service - might appeal to the bottom line. It's far harder to see how such a change can either bring back the lost passion and lost fans of the club game in Wales. Nor indeed how, in the longer term, it will be good for the national set up. Do we really only want one or two tight-heads or open-sides to choose from in future (assuming, that is, a ban on foreign imports is not also on the cards?)

Mr Lewis is clearly serious about the need to reform the regional game and has been candid about the options being considered. I would urge him to continue in this vein and to go one step further by making sure that any changes are built on a solid evidence of what the fans, whose funds and passion must sustain the game, want from it at a club/regional level.

In addition to taking our research into consideration, the WRU should make sure that their own PwC study into the current status and sustainability of the regional tier should include an assessment of the fans' perspective - and it, like ours, should be published in full.

Lastly, in considering any further changes, the Union must recognise the heartfelt hurt of rugby fans in the Valleys who feel alienated by the current set up but remain passionate rugby fans and a great, untapped financial resource for our game. It would be a travesty if their views were to be ignored and a top-down reorganisation of Welsh rugby put in train with neither a professional clubs nor even a development region in the Valleys.
 
Surely there should be a cap on expenditure, what happens when clubs overspend is that they expose themselves to bankruptcy if and when the financial backer pulls out and the clubs in lower leagues are most at danger of this. It sounds like Redruth RFC are a well run club, who operate within a given financial structure, clubs who start spending more than they have coming in due to a benevolent backer will have trouble when the backer pulls the plug, this has happened in Wales before and when you have a club such as Merthyr who don't get massive numbers through the gate but have wages which vastly exceed income it's a disaster waiting to happen Ponty are the best supported club in the Welsh prem and club shop and bar takings will be much higher than average in the league, we would not last a season if we paid Merthyrs current wage bill. To conclude the governing body should act to stop clubs spending exceeding their respective income the once great club Neath have only just avoided bankruptcy.

The same as happens to any other business that fails to follow the teachings of Wilkins Micawber's teachings! I guess this comes down to a political / ideological question - should clubs be in charge of their own destiny (and can they be trusted to be) or sould be brother be holding their hand. The capitalist in me says leave clubs to manage their own affairs.

I don't see what making clubs spend within their income would achieve. Presumably Merthyr are spending within their income, it just so happens that a significant portion of this income is derived from one source that could vanish into thin air overnight. Whether this scenario would indeed be a disaster depends largely on hos the custodians of the club have managed the situation. I always shudder when I see benefactors taking ownership of club's assets or even worse of the club itself - if their intentions are on the up and up, why should they require this? When the plug gets pulled, there is an inevitable free fall period like Manchester and Waterloo experienced in the English leagues, but the clubs were still built on sound foundations and found their level and are rebuilding. Mount's Bay on the other hand were built on exceedingly shaky foundations and ceased to exist a few months after their backer Michael Leah pulled out of the club.
 
The same as happens to any other business that fails to follow the teachings of Wilkins Micawber's teachings! I guess this comes down to a political / ideological question - should clubs be in charge of their own destiny (and can they be trusted to be) or sould be brother be holding their hand. The capitalist in me says leave clubs to manage their own affairs.

I don't see what making clubs spend within their income would achieve. Presumably Merthyr are spending within their income, it just so happens that a significant portion of this income is derived from one source that could vanish into thin air overnight. Whether this scenario would indeed be a disaster depends largely on hos the custodians of the club have managed the situation. I always shudder when I see benefactors taking ownership of club's assets or even worse of the club itself - if their intentions are on the up and up, why should they require this? When the plug gets pulled, there is an inevitable free fall period like Manchester and Waterloo experienced in the English leagues, but the clubs were still built on sound foundations and found their level and are rebuilding. Mount's Bay on the other hand were built on exceedingly shaky foundations and ceased to exist a few months after their backer Michael Leah pulled out of the club.

Yes it was sad to see Mounts Bay dissolve, we played them in a pre season when one of our ex players Lee Jarvis was there, however back to reality, if a club is a business as well then surely it should be run on firm foundations by which I mean spending within their income, with Stan the pieman feeding the club money as is now happening the wage bill alone would far exceed any money the club earns, this will always be the case whilst this man has his wallet open, because the best Merthyr are going to do is get promoted to the prem and win the league and cup each year, even if they gain and sustain the volume of fans we have at Ponty (which I doubt) they will never have an income to match the clubs outgoings , quite simply it isn't possible, we are talking of a premiership where away support apart from us and Ebbw rarely exceeds 2 coach loads. So to summarise there should be a cap on wages to fit the clubs income otherwise you don't have a business, what you have is an egotistical kingpin who has more money than sense. Should a wealthy benefactor take control of a club his job should be to improve facilities and add value to the bricks and mortar and ultimately the local community who after all are the real beating heart of any rugby club.
 
Don't get me wrong v c, we're mostly singing from the same song book, I would venture to say me from a more objective, pragmatic point of view. Regarding a salary cap, the WRU don't strike me as having the resources to put something like that into place for level three rugby.

There's a lot of semantics in the financial terms - I wonder how many professional clubs could spend within their means if they were to discount sponsorship, which is effectively what you're man at Merthyr is giving them.

As I say, each club has a choice when someone waves a cheque in their direction. No club is going to say no, but I would council every one to do it all on their terms and keep a decent safety net on place. Maybe you're party to a lot more information than me, or maybe Merthyr's members / committee have been very astute.

FWIW, the way I see it is that the goal for any club, or any investor in a club at our level should be to build a business capable of sustaining a rugby habit! To me, the joy of watching your club play is to see lads who have come up through the minis / juniors / colts many of whom you played alongside, or (in my case) with the relatives of, or have friends / family connections. If I won the Euro Millions tomorrow (or whenever it's drawn next), my only investment in Redruth would be in infrastructure. If that's working well, you can look at spending money on players safe in the knowledge that there's no bubble to burst and leave a lot of history high and dry.
 
Don't get me wrong v c, we're mostly singing from the same song book, I would venture to say me from a more objective, pragmatic point of view. Regarding a salary cap, the WRU don't strike me as having the resources to put something like that into place for level three rugby.

There's a lot of semantics in the financial terms - I wonder how many professional clubs could spend within their means if they were to discount sponsorship, which is effectively what you're man at Merthyr is giving them.

As I say, each club has a choice when someone waves a cheque in their direction. No club is going to say no, but I would council every one to do it all on their terms and keep a decent safety net on place. Maybe you're party to a lot more information than me, or maybe Merthyr's members / committee have been very astute.

FWIW, the way I see it is that the goal for any club, or any investor in a club at our level should be to build a business capable of sustaining a rugby habit! To me, the joy of watching your club play is to see lads who have come up through the minis / juniors / colts many of whom you played alongside, or (in my case) with the relatives of, or have friends / family connections. If I won the Euro Millions tomorrow (or whenever it's drawn next), my only investment in Redruth would be in infrastructure. If that's working well, you can look at spending money on players safe in the knowledge that there's no bubble to burst and leave a lot of history high and dry.

Yes I agree with you, however what we see as right and proper is one thing, what the powers that be and the men with the fat wallets do is another.
 
Another round of ****e for the Welsh sides in the BIC, pathetic results and pathetic idea by the WRUin to forego the clubs for the regions in this comp.
 
Looking at the results as a whole I dont think many would disagree when I say I has developed into a meaningless competition. It is nothing more than a few games to give the seconds a run out Nothing more. I didnt go to the matches this week for that very reason. Why would I be daft enough to pay full price to watch a reserve match when I can watch the A league matches or Clifton RFC for a fiver ??
That said it would be great to be drawn against the Cornish again It might be a 400 mile round trip but Like Ponty always one venue I look forward to visiting. Great people even if they do have a nasty habbit of beating us.
 
I have today that, albeit I do not subscribe to BT, the standard and entertainment of the matches I have seen has been retry dire!!
 
Another round of ****e for the Welsh sides in the BIC, pathetic results and pathetic idea by the WRUin to forego the clubs for the regions in this comp.

We're going over old ground, but I really don't see how you can say this is a failure until you wait and see how many players blooded / given game time in this tournament and the next few go on to senior Wales honours as has happened with the Irish teams over the years.

Maybe this is just taking games away from the PP clubs, maybe it is the start of putting into place a conveyor belt of talent that will set Wales in good stead for years to come. Rightly or wrongly, it appears that the PP isn't seen as a suitable vehicle to develop players, so with only four senior sides in the country, surely something more must be done to give game time to fringe / up and coming players.

FWIW, I watched bits of the Cardiff Barbarians vs Pirates game and they didn't look too bad to me, they were unlucky to run into a very well organised, resolute Pirates defence which prevented them from getting more out of the game.

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Looking at the results as a whole I dont think many would disagree when I say I has developed into a meaningless competition. It is nothing more than a few games to give the seconds a run out Nothing more. I didnt go to the matches this week for that very reason. Why would I be daft enough to pay full price to watch a reserve match when I can watch the A league matches or Clifton RFC for a fiver ??
That said it would be great to be drawn against the Cornish again It might be a 400 mile round trip but Like Ponty always one venue I look forward to visiting. Great people even if they do have a nasty habbit of beating us.

Particularly as the Championship is such a small league, pretty much every side has their eye on either the play offs or avoiding a relegation dog fight, few if any DoRs could put their hand on their heart and say that a BIC match is as big a priority as a league match. The crowds when compared to those for league matches give the same impression. I'm surprised that Bristol charge the regular price for BIC matches, I had the impression that most charge less, although I must confess that I haven't attended one since Pirates won the final on home soil.

I think you'd struggle to find a single supporter (other than maybe of the team that wins the competition) who wouldn't rather ditch the BIC and replace the blank weekends with league matches created by adding the top 3 of National One. Chairmen and Treasurers may be less keen though - all of a sudden there would be 3 more mouths to feed from the same pot at the same time as the squad becomes more expensive as it needs to be able to withstand 6 more league matches without the facility to bring in fringe / loan players.

As for trips to the Mennaye, as this season's match suggested, regular upsets for the Pirates may be a thing of the past for a while at least. It's funny that you would bemoan the 400 mile round trip - Bristol is Pirates' local derby!
 
Bemoan?? That's not a word I would use I love the place, it's people and the club. It's the travelling that is the issue for me as it is for the Cornish pirates and their supporters. Do I wish Penzance was closer to Bristol? To right I do but that's purely for selfish reasons. As for the new SFC, being centralish in the county has to improve their support base and I really do wish them well but like so many Bristol fans we will miss our weekend breaks in Penzance and the old ground but not the beatings we often got there lol
 

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