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Bic failure

Yet more losses for in the BIC from Welsh regions, Cardiff away to Ldn Welsh where the reports are 2 fans travelled from Cardiff but left at half time, while the home defeat of the Ospreys to Ldn Scottish , yes honestly Ldn Scottish, was attended by the St Johns ambulance and an escaped nutter from a nearby mental hospital.
 
So our only hope is the regions go bankrupt then then we can start again and do it properly next. Please don't presume what or what not Ponty fans would do, unlike Cardiff and their fans we still have our dignity, morals and self respect, something sadly lacking in Cardiff, end of.

That's your hope VC. Many want the pro teams to succeed, and they aren't going anywhere.

It's sad that you are lowering yourself to blaming and offending fans mate.
 
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That's your hope VC. Many want the pro teams to succeed, and they aren't going anywhere.

It's sad that you are lowering yourself to blaming and offending fans mate.

Many from Cardiff, certainly nobody away from the Regions, I am not lowering myself mate, everything's gone your way so your happy, things will be different when the regions under there current guise are changed.
 
*sigh* you really are a bit of a broken record aren't you mate? No matter the topic, no matter if someone proves you wrong / calls you out on your attitude, you just bang the same old drum every time.

You are lowering yourself mate, Bluemoon or any other Blues fan aren't a bunch of evil conniving people with no dignity, and you're only insulting them because you have this massive chip on your shoulder about the Blues.

No one is saying that the regions are perfect, far from it, but we're just supporting our local team - none of us have a vendetta against Ponty or any other Premiership side.

To re-iterate - it was always gonna take time for the new regional B&I teams to bed down, and really start gelling together as a team. With a bit of time the set up could really help the Welsh game in general, and find that step up level between the PP and the Regions.
 
*sigh* you really are a bit of a broken record aren't you mate? No matter the topic, no matter if someone proves you wrong / calls you out on your attitude, you just bang the same old drum every time.

You are lowering yourself mate, Bluemoon or any other Blues fan aren't a bunch of evil conniving people with no dignity, and you're only insulting them because you have this massive chip on your shoulder about the Blues.

No one is saying that the regions are perfect, far from it, but we're just supporting our local team - none of us have a vendetta against Ponty or any other Premiership side.

To re-iterate - it was always gonna take time for the new regional B&I teams to bed down, and really start gelling together as a team. With a bit of time the set up could really help the Welsh game in general, and find that step up level between the PP and the Regions.

Nah, this is his normal level.
 
*sigh* you really are a bit of a broken record aren't you mate? No matter the topic, no matter if someone proves you wrong / calls you out on your attitude, you just bang the same old drum every time.

You are lowering yourself mate, Bluemoon or any other Blues fan aren't a bunch of evil conniving people with no dignity, and you're only insulting them because you have this massive chip on your shoulder about the Blues.

No one is saying that the regions are perfect, far from it, but we're just supporting our local team - none of us have a vendetta against Ponty or any other Premiership side.

To re-iterate - it was always gonna take time for the new regional B&I teams to bed down, and really start gelling together as a team. With a bit of time the set up could really help the Welsh game in general, and find that step up level between the PP and the Regions.

I very much doubt if this new structure will work, as for the regions they are not working there are to many regions the experiment has had plenty of time to show if it will work and apart from the only 'real region' (Sean Holley's words not mine) the Ospreys, it looks like very little chance of silverware in Europe again, how can you stick up for something that is blatantly not working and doesn't encompass all fans in Wales ?
Finally one last question had the region you are in been called the Black and Whites and played their games at Sardis road how many Cardiff fans would turn up weekly ?
 
Hi All

I will start by saying I am English with Welsh in laws and played most of my Rugby when young in the Swansea area and valleys

When the regions were created they created a lot of resentment among my Welsh friends as it seemed Cardiff and Llanelli were given preference and able to keep their identity where clubs with equally credible histories were formed into regions. This resulted in many of my friends saying remarks i.e. 'if the new regional side was playing in my back garden I would close the curtains'. It seems reading the latest post these resentments are still festering and the attendances are certainly poor enough to possible reflect this sentiment is still widespread. It has been suggested to me that when the National side call in their squad the regional sides are poor value to watch. If this is the case then two regional sides might make sense whereby the local sides could retain more of their identity and there would be little impact on them when the National side call up their squad. I have no idea whether this would impact player development or how it would be financed - what is obvious to everyone is that local support has to improve or the game will die at the grassroots.

I wish the WRU every success as the Wales v England fixture must remain as a top competitive fixture for all of us. At the moment I think the WRU are in a far better position than the English RU

Rugbyrant
 
Hi All

I will start by saying I am English with Welsh in laws and played most of my Rugby when young in the Swansea area and valleys

When the regions were created they created a lot of resentment among my Welsh friends as it seemed Cardiff and Llanelli were given preference and able to keep their identity where clubs with equally credible histories were formed into regions. This resulted in many of my friends saying remarks i.e. 'if the new regional side was playing in my back garden I would close the curtains'. It seems reading the latest post these resentments are still festering and the attendances are certainly poor enough to possible reflect this sentiment is still widespread. It has been suggested to me that when the National side call in their squad the regional sides are poor value to watch. If this is the case then two regional sides might make sense whereby the local sides could retain more of their identity and there would be little impact on them when the National side call up their squad. I have no idea whether this would impact player development or how it would be financed - what is obvious to everyone is that local support has to improve or the game will die at the grassroots.

I wish the WRU every success as the Wales v England fixture must remain as a top competitive fixture for all of us. At the moment I think the WRU are in a far better position than the English RU

Rugbyrant

Hello rugby rant.

I think you are right in saying that the regions in Llanelli, Cardiff and arguably Newport, all were able to keep some of their individual identity, where as the ospreys and warriors had new identities. I think what many people aren't asking is why? In fear of sounding like a broken record, Welsh rugby is not rich, has never had 10,000+ fans every week, and at the time the regions were created the revenue for the teams were extremely low. That in mind, the only men in Wales that could actually create four or five pro teams were private investors. Funnily enough, these private investors already had interests in Cardiff, Llanelli and Newport, and they were given precedent. I don't agree with that, by any stretch. At the time, a Cardiff-Ponty merge would have been fantastic and very very strong. A new name, wearing blue and white, playing at both grounds, I think could have worked. I would have gone, that's for sure.

But we need to understand that changing the game now would be almost impossible and four pro teams is what we have (not regions). The game has moved, teams are funded by 4 million pounds just for wages, and even then the French and English have 2x that. No one has the money, resources or will to wind regions up and make two teams. Even then, what if the 'fans' close the curtains on the two teams and argue that the club game is the correct one. As a businessman, you'd be mad to invest the capital required to make these two teams.

The only point I won't agree with you on is failing attendances. The attendances have been steadily rising year on year for years for mostly all of the regions. Perhaps at the end of this season, that might change slightly. Ospreys and Scarlets have an issue because their stadiums are too big and it looks awful when they get a 6000 gate.
 
Hello rugby rant.

I think you are right in saying that the regions in Llanelli, Cardiff and arguably Newport, all were able to keep some of their individual identity, where as the ospreys and warriors had new identities. I think what many people aren't asking is why? In fear of sounding like a broken record, Welsh rugby is not rich, has never had 10,000+ fans every week, and at the time the regions were created the revenue for the teams were extremely low. That in mind, the only men in Wales that could actually create four or five pro teams were private investors. Funnily enough, these private investors already had interests in Cardiff, Llanelli and Newport, and they were given precedent. I don't agree with that, by any stretch. At the time, a Cardiff-Ponty merge would have been fantastic and very very strong. A new name, wearing blue and white, playing at both grounds, I think could have worked. I would have gone, that's for sure.

But we need to understand that changing the game now would be almost impossible and four pro teams is what we have (not regions). The game has moved, teams are funded by 4 million pounds just for wages, and even then the French and English have 2x that. No one has the money, resources or will to wind regions up and make two teams. Even then, what if the 'fans' close the curtains on the two teams and argue that the club game is the correct one. As a businessman, you'd be mad to invest the capital required to make these two teams.

The only point I won't agree with you on is failing attendances. The attendances have been steadily rising year on year for years for mostly all of the regions. Perhaps at the end of this season, that might change slightly. Ospreys and Scarlets have an issue because their stadiums are too big and it looks awful when they get a 6000 gate.

http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/HomeAttendance?comp_id=262
Check this site Blue Moon.

Average league attendances -:

Blues 2007/08 - 8,241
2015/16 - 4,681
Ospreys 2007/08 - 8,702
2015/16 - 7,745
Dragons 2007/08 - 4,972
2015/16 - 4,527
Scarlets 2007/08 - 7,350
2007/08 - 6,623
These are league attendances, admittedly if you look at last year the Blues and Dragons achieved there best average since 2007/08, whilst Ospreys and Scarlets were lower, what it does show is so far this season attendances are pathetic.
If the French and English have double the income that the regions have and we reduced the regions to 2, then would we not be on par with the English and French clubs financially ?
Finally I have asked this question before but nobody allied to Cardiff Blues has answered it - Had the Blues region been called the Black and Whites and played at Sardis Road, how many from Cardiff would have supported the region, I imagine between non to very few.
 
I Have not been to a B&I Cup match this season because frankly there is no point going to watch a team of Welsh players, I Dont know who they are, what they stand for or what club they represent. The only two teams I watch with that sort of structure are the Lions and Barbarians. Bring Back Bristol V Ponty I say lets have some games with real meaning.
 
I Have not been to a B&I Cup match this season because frankly there is no point going to watch a team of Welsh players, I Dont know who they are, what they stand for or what club they represent. The only two teams I watch with that sort of structure are the Lions and Barbarians. Bring Back Bristol V Ponty I say lets have some games with real meaning.

I'm glad there are others who feel this way especially from sides we have played in the BIC, it was massive for us playing the likes of you guys, Worcester, the Pirates, Doncaster, The Bees etc, obviously you had bigger fish to fry in your respective league, but it meant a hell of lot to some of the clubs in Wales notably, Ebbw, Keys and us. Ponty fans love away games treating them as mini tours, pre region we had the largest volume of away fans in Wales, more recently in the 1st year of the BIC we went to Scotland to play Ayr and took more fans than the regions take to Scotland. Several 100 fans stayed in Worcester all weekend last season and its only a 2 hour drive from Worcester to Ponty, maybe the extra few bob we put into the local economy was the reason Worcester fans urged their club to play a pre season against us, but I suspect it was down to the atmosphere created by 2 decent sets of fans.
 
No your far from being alone. To be honest the B&I cup has become nothing more than a practice session aginst the Welsh sides. Not being any real Welsh clubs in it . The Bristol Ponty fixtures are some of the oldest around and home and away I wouldve been there as I wouldve been against any of the true Welsh Clubs. Yes there is always that rivalry which is always enhanced a little by Enland Wales thing but also the bond of two true rugby clubs and their supporters. Ive had some of my best Rugby times in the clubs of Wales and its sad to see the decline.
Bigger fish to fry ? Maybe but sometimes in life its the little things that provide the spice.
 
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Interesting stats you quote VC, considering Cardiff Blues have only played 2 league games at the arms park so far this year. From your own source:-

Cardiff Blues Av League Att=

07/08 = 8241
08/09 = 8608
09/10 =10635
10/11 = 10365
11/12 = 7667
12/13 = 8055
13/14 = 9452
14/15 = 11275

As I said, showing a steady increase in the last few years, despite a very poor product. You have to consider the fact that the Judgement day fixture was in this too.

I imagine that stat might drop this year, by the end of the year. But that isn't a surprise considering Cardiff Blues are trying to rebuild again. On top of that, this isn't including the Euro games, which have usually been well attended. This isn't the stats of a failing team. The league table and results show that haha!

As I said in my last post VC, I'd have supported a Cardiff-Ponty region, as at one point that was an option. Named South Glamorgan or something similar. At both stadiums. But hey ho.
 
No your far from being alone. To be honest the B&I cup has become nothing more than a practice session aginst the Welsh sides. Not being any real Welsh clubs in it . The Bristol Ponty fixtures are some of the oldest around and home and away I wouldve been there as I wouldve been against any of the true Welsh Clubs. Yes there is always that rivalry which is always enhanced a little by Enland Wales thing but also the bond of two true rugby clubs and their supporters. Ive had some of my best Rugby times in the clubs of Wales and its sad to see the decline.
Bigger fish to fry ? Maybe but sometimes in life its the little things that provide the spice.

Yes I miss the old anglo fixtures especially the West Country ones and the games we used to have V Lydney and Cinderford from the Forest of Dean. Ponty fans would usually make a weekend of these fixtures as we have done in the BIC, although Worcester is only 2 hours drive from Ponty several 100 fans stayed overnight in Worcester having the craic with the locals into the early hours with the volume of alcohol consumed a welcome boost to the local hostelries.

- - - Updated - - -

Interesting stats you quote VC, considering Cardiff Blues have only played 2 league games at the arms park so far this year. From your own source:-

Cardiff Blues Av League Att=

07/08 = 8241
08/09 = 8608
09/10 =10635
10/11 = 10365
11/12 = 7667
12/13 = 8055
13/14 = 9452
14/15 = 11275

As I said, showing a steady increase in the last few years, despite a very poor product. You have to consider the fact that the Judgement day fixture was in this too.

I imagine that stat might drop this year, by the end of the year. But that isn't a surprise considering Cardiff Blues are trying to rebuild again. On top of that, this isn't including the Euro games, which have usually been well attended. This isn't the stats of a failing team. The league table and results show that haha!

As I said in my last post VC, I'd have supported a Cardiff-Ponty region, as at one point that was an option. Named South Glamorgan or something similar. At both stadiums. But hey ho.

In theory if there were 2 regions, lets say East Wales and West Wales for arguments sake and that if the Teams were playing in a meaningful league, a European Super League for instance then these 2 sides could easily get 20,000 through the gates regularly.
Underpinning this could be a development league in Wales of 4 clubs from the East and 4 from the West -:
West could be Llanelli, Neath, Swansea and Bridgend.
East could be Cardiff, Ponty, Newport and Ebbw.
No relegation from this development league with players surplus to the regions playing amongst up and coming youngsters.
This in my opinion would be a product to excite fans and would help keep Wales at the top table, because currently there is still a lot of apathy in Welsh rugby with the grass roots suffering and with out proper foundations the house will collapse.
 
Guys I don't know what the answer is to the Welsh issues but what I do know is whether or not the WRU like it or not the supporters are inherently bonded to their individual clubs. It's something they take great pride in and will rightly defend.
It doesn't matter if it's Wales, England, Australia or anybody else, the fact is Supporters support their individual clubs and from that go on to support their countries. Most players follow the same route starting at school then going onto the clubs they support as a kid working their way up maybe as far as playing for their country. Therefore whatever any Union does when restructuring they must at all times ensure that these clubs are safe guarded. If you lose the clubs, you lose the fans and the players these clubs spawn, if we kill off the grass roots we kill off the game. Any governing body would be stupid to allow that to happen. It must also be said that local authorities must shoulder some of the blame here for example My old school used to have 4 rugby pitches and two football now the land has been sold off for housing, the school rebuilt leaving just the one artificial grass football pitch and none for rugby that in my humble opinion is a backward step..
Just take football for a second, Much has been written about how much the decline of the national teams and quality of the home grown players is directly related to the amount of money that flowed into the big premiership clubs, causing an influx of foreign players and all to the detriment of the smaller clubs who couldn't hope to compete causing a huge void between the haves and have nots which hurt the grass roots of the game and developing home grown players. Yes a lot has been done since to reverse the decline but look at the damage that has been done before even the money men realised their big mistake. Rugby must not make the same mistake.
 
The bottom line is that the Welsh clubs could not compete with the money and professional structures of the other nations. There had to be a reduction in the number of teams so that the WRU could provide some funding centrally, and get the teams back in the black and set up sustainable businesses.

It's sad that some of the clubs are now semi pro, but there is still a good community game in Wales. If you look at how successful the Irish teams were with the provinces, I think the initial idea by Moffat was right, the execution of the welsh pro teams were rushed and has led to a fragmented Wales.

I think the problem is, there isn't a way back to the club game, unless there are rich men willing to put money in and lose it for the sake of strong welsh teams. We've shown in the past that that isn't sustainable.

All of this arguing about what the regions should have been is great for debate, but can't change anything in reality.
 
The bottom line is that the Welsh clubs could not compete with the money and professional structures of the other nations. There had to be a reduction in the number of teams so that the WRU could provide some funding centrally, and get the teams back in the black and set up sustainable businesses.

It's sad that some of the clubs are now semi pro, but there is still a good community game in Wales. If you look at how successful the Irish teams were with the provinces, I think the initial idea by Moffat was right, the execution of the welsh pro teams were rushed and has led to a fragmented Wales.

I think the problem is, there isn't a way back to the club game, unless there are rich men willing to put money in and lose it for the sake of strong welsh teams. We've shown in the past that that isn't sustainable.

All of this arguing about what the regions should have been is great for debate, but can't change anything in reality.

+1
 

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