Best International team ever

[TRF_heineken]

Os
Joost
Joubert

Ruben Kruger

 

[FlukeArtist]

'96-'97 All Blacks.
Simply an all-star starting 15

Dowd, FitzPatrick, Brown
R.Brooke, I.Jones
M.Jones, J.Kronfeld
Z.Brooke
Marshall
Mehrtens/Spencer
Little
Bunce
Lomu/Umaga
Wilson
Cullen

 

[Isurus]

Regarding the England '02-'03 side - no doubt they were quality, credit credit credit and all that.

However.... through that era they played the All Blacks only twice and I remember both games pretty well.

The first was in November of '02 when we sent a very weakened squad north. There were few first string players and plenty of 3rd stringers. I can't remember why but there were something like 20 players left home that would have made a 30 man squad. Of course there is no such thing as a weak All Black team but this side was widely referred to back home as The New Zealand C Team. This game was a cracker with the All Blacks scoring 4 tries to 3 but England squeaked out a win by 31-28. I remember the final act of the game with the AB's attacking down the left with Ben Blair (very much a 3rd choice winger) going for the corner and being tackled into touch brilliantly by Ben Cohen.

The other game was a one off match during England's brief tour down under as part of their lead up to the '03 World Cup. The game was played in gale force winds at the old Athletic Park in Wellington in June 2003. Conditions were truly abysmal which of course played into England's hands who had one Jonny Wilkinson at the peak of his powers in the 10 jersey and the best forward pack on the planet. Well that was the narrative going into the match but on the day the All Black forwards beat the proverbial out of their opposites, dominating lineouts, scrums, and breakdowns. New Zealand scored the only try of the day but goal kicking was a near impossible task. Except that Jonny did somehow manage to kick 5 goals including what turned out to be the winning goal from some 40 meters out. Final score 15-13 to Enland. The match though will mostly be remembered for the final stanza where England had two forwards in the sin bin and had to somehow pack down at least 2 scrums on their own line yet somehow they held on. Martin Johnson was interviewed after the match and asked what was going through his mind during those scrums - his classic response "Uh, my spine" was all he had to say on the matter .

The above is all from memory so if I have anything wrong then please let me know. Actually does anyone know where I can find match reports for tests going back that far? Would really like to compare what I remember to the actual facts of these matches.


The point of my post though is that a lot of New Zealanders (myself definitely included) felt like this truly great English team were never fully tested because they only played a full strength NZ side once and that was in highly unusual conditions.

Just saying.

 

[nickdnz]

Regarding the England '02-'03 side - no doubt they were quality, credit credit credit and all that.

However.... through that era they played the All Blacks only twice and I remember both games pretty well.

The first was in November of '02 when we sent a very weakened squad north. There were few first string players and plenty of 3rd stringers. I can't remember why but there were something like 20 players left home that would have made a 30 man squad. Of course there is no such thing as a weak All Black team but this side was widely referred to back home as The New Zealand C Team. This game was a cracker with the All Blacks scoring 4 tries to 3 but England squeaked out a win by 31-28. I remember the final act of the game with the AB's attacking down the left with Ben Blair (very much a 3rd choice winger) going for the corner and being tackled into touch brilliantly by Ben Cohen.

The other game was a one off match during England's brief tour down under as part of their lead up to the '03 World Cup. The game was played in gale force winds at the old Athletic Park in Wellington in June 2003. Conditions were truly abysmal which of course played into England's hands who had one Jonny Wilkinson at the peak of his powers in the 10 jersey and the best forward pack on the planet. Well that was the narrative going into the match but on the day the All Black forwards beat the proverbial out of their opposites, dominating lineouts, scrums, and breakdowns. New Zealand scored the only try of the day but goal kicking was a near impossible task. Except that Jonny did somehow manage to kick 5 goals including what turned out to be the winning goal from some 40 meters out. Final score 15-13 to Enland. The match though will mostly be remembered for the final stanza where England had two forwards in the sin bin and had to somehow pack down at least 2 scrums on their own line yet somehow they held on. Martin Johnson was interviewed after the match and asked what was going through his mind during those scrums - his classic response "Uh, my spine" was all he had to say on the matter .

The above is all from memory so if I have anything wrong then please let me know. Actually does anyone know where I can find match reports for tests going back that far? Would really like to compare what I remember to the actual facts of these matches.


The point of my post though is that a lot of New Zealanders (myself definitely included) felt like this truly great English team were never fully tested because they only played a full strength NZ side once and that was in highly unusual conditions.

Just saying.

All Blacks.com is very helpful.

http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/teamsheet.asp?MT_ID=2085

http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/teamsheet.asp?MT_ID=2088

 

[Big Ewis]

TRF_Feicarsinn :
aaahhhh....good old fashioned stubborn, wasteful internet arguments.

I'll repeat my point (without insulting you, because I'm like that): England played great games against the SH teams, but I don't think they were actually necessarily better than them. Heck, France just played a better game than NZ on their home field about a year ago, certainly doesn't mean France is better. We just played a better 80minutes. For God's sake, that's a simple point enough that I would get across without getting into further detail, is it not ?...it's the basis of sports...
Obviously when England beat NZ (13-15) in NZ in 2003, it was an upset. It wasn't like the English were all of a sudden the new AB's of the world. It wasn't like everybody went "yeah yeah, as expected, sure sure, England with a pretty good victory...I guess...whatever...hey let's go for pizza...". It wasn't like the France NZ semi-final in 1999 either, but it certainly was not a mundane thing either, obviously.

I think they were excellent on paper. Had a lot going for them in every aspect of the game (yes, I accept Robinson and Greenwood for the backs), but were besides all things extremely focused. And had great momentum going for them. With each victory, and that English temperament, they stayed consistent and grew in confidence. Wilko was a HUUUGE contributor, any other boot-man would have srs hindered their success.

Was just checkin out the 2003 6N game in Twick hostin France last night. France scored 3 tries to 1 (one on a kick block, not a real team try) but they still beat us comfortably because of 1) our stupid mistakes 2) their pressure on us 3) it was ridiculously windy and our kicker(s) missed like 6 or 7 and Wilko converted everything. Their scrum wasn't even dominant, we actually won a few.
This was a very good team, but that still achieved more than what it "should" looking at them on paper. The 9-0 VS SH teams was by no means a fluke, bu they played very good games each time. And besides SA that just sucked coincidentally just during that exact 3year England prime stretch, their victories against the SH are in close encounters more often than not. Good victories nonetheless, I'm just stating the facts.

Now on a personal note: DON'T ****ING INSULT ME on a ****ing internet forum boy. You think I made a discursive mistake, please take the time to explain it to me, but I'm not a disposable username I'm a person and you wouldn't talk to me like that in a real life chat room, so please stop the cowardice friend...thank you.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Now on a personal note: DON'T ****ING INSULT ME on a ****ing internet forum boy. You think I made a discursive mistake, please take the time to explain it to me, but I'm not a disposable username I'm a person and you wouldn't talk to me like that in a real life chat room, so please stop the cowardice friend...thank you.

Feisty fellow aren't ya!

Let the Come at me bro banners commence!

 

[RyotoTheDragon]

Now on a personal note: DON'T ****ING INSULT ME on a ****ing internet forum boy. You think I made a discursive mistake, please take the time to explain it to me, but I'm not a disposable username I'm a person and you wouldn't talk to me like that in a real life chat room, so please stop the cowardice friend...thank you.

Ref: "Are you ready?(points to yoe) Are you ready? (points to Fei) Lets get it on!"

Me: :Blinky:


I give the first round to Mr. Yoe.

 

[Teh Mite]

:lol: internet...

 

[lucky number 7]

Say that to me on the internet and not in person and see what happens to you.

 

[Big Ewis]

:lol: internet...

Srsly...
People call other ppl names they wouldn't dare in person. Not because I'm huge or anything, but you just don't have a conversation with a guy at some party and then start swearing because he says the 2003 England team was great but flawed and not legendary, when sober !
This guy just remotely insults ppl he doesn't like comments from, just like that...where on Earth does he think he is ?!! :lol:
And I'm supposed to just sit here and take the ****, whaaaaaaaat was he thinkin...

 

[Isurus]

Regarding the England '02-'03 side...

Yeah, yeah - quoting myself...

Done some research and my memory was off a bit.

In the '02 match 16 players from the TriNations squad didn't make this trip (Gibson, Hammett, Hewett, Jack, Kelleher, MacDonald, Maling, Marshall, Mauger, McCaw, Ralph, Robertson, Sommerville, Thorne, Willis, Willis) so only Randell from a first string forward pack was there. The backline was still strong but down to a 3rd choice halfback (behind Marshall and Kelleher) and missing Gibson, Mauger, Ralph, and MacDonald. NZ were behind 17 points in the 2nd spell but mounted a great comeback and could have stolen it at the death. Match report here: http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/teamsheet.asp?MT_ID=2085 (thanks TRF_nickdnz).

The Wellington game in '03 was at the Westpac Stadium, not Athletic Park, and the conditions were nowhere near as bad as I recalled. There was swirling wind as you often get in the caketin and it did rain but it wasn't too bad. Was a ding dong battle and the main reason we lost was an inability to convert a lot of try scoring opportunities plus Spencer had a very bad day from the kicking tee. England were down to 13 men at one point and scrummed with 6v8 but that was earlier in the match, not at the end. The referee was Stuart Dickinson and he was an utter douchebag throughout. Full game here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGDivBtzfMM (thanks yoe91) and match report here: http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/teamsheet.asp?MT_ID=2088 (thanks TRF_nickdnz).

 

[admartian]

 

[Maverick1987]

I'm amazed no one has mentioned the Wales team for late 70's for a good 7 or 8 years were phenomenal tbh

 

[SelimNiai]

I'm amazed no one has mentioned the Wales team for late 70's for a good 7 or 8 years were phenomenal tbh

Cos whenever we do we get the "oh but it was the amateur era, its different know blah blah jelous blah"

 

[Maverick1987]

Different era can come into play at any point even from now to the boks team that won the rwc in 2007 era shouldn't make a difference at the time they were the best and had the rwc started by then Wales would undoubtably have won 1 or possibly more .....

 

[William18]

I'm amazed no one has mentioned the Wales team for late 70's for a good 7 or 8 years were phenomenal tbh

Lost to New Zealand in 78 (controversial yes, I know) and 80. Lost to Australia twice in 78 but beat them at home before and after that. Didn't get to play South Africa. Won the five nations four times in five years. I think they were a very good team but you would be stretching it to claim they were even the best team in the world at that time, let alone one of the best ever.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Now on a personal note: DON'T ****ING INSULT ME on a ****ing internet forum boy. You think I made a discursive mistake, please take the time to explain it to me, but I'm not a disposable username I'm a person and you wouldn't talk to me like that in a real life chat room, so please stop the cowardice friend...thank you.

Lulz, I only just saw this. I'm not being a coward at all mate, just teaching you an important lesson; if you say idiotic things, people will treat you like an idiot.

 

[Big Ewis]

^ I absolutely agree with that maxim, but there's a great limit between saying stupid things and what I said. Unless I say smt pathetically stupid, you have to calm the hell down and try to be a bit less negative and aggressive online "mate".
My point is: England was GREAT. Greatness is rare in any sport. But they weren't as legendary as ppl (well...by "ppl" I mean solely the English themselves :lol made them...and I used that one example of France coming close in Twickenham while not even playing amazing rugby (2003, 6N). But I'll agree that 2001-2003 was one crazy run. Three times they lost I think. Twice to France and once to Ireland when they choked the last game of the 6N Grand Slam

 

[LittleGuy]

I rate the "Old Christians" of Montevideo as the greatest ever team to grace this sport for their acheivement which puts any RWC, 6N or quad nations championship to shame. This is the greatest accomplishment of anyone to ever touch a rugby ball I **** you not....

http://www.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/story/171274.html

http://www.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/story/73825.html

 

[nickdnz]

I rate the "Old Christians" of Montevideo as the greatest ever team to grace this sport for their acheivement which puts any RWC, 6N or quad nations championship to shame. This is the greatest accomplishment of anyone to ever touch a rugby ball I **** you not....

http://www.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/story/171274.html

http://www.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/story/73825.html

Their hunger for the game was undeniable...goodnight *runs away*