Bath or "The masochists guide to rugby"

[Ragey Erasmus]

More to the point, who would want the job that would actually be competent enough to turn things around?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I think Bath could be an attractive club for a coach, it's a beautiful area good rugby support base.

Trouble is can Craig just let the rugby guys handle the rugby.

 

[Which Tyler]

More to the point, who would want the job that would actually be competent enough to turn things around?

Lots.
Like England after Lancaster; anyone new would be taking on a very talented group of players who are significantly underperforming - and SHOULD be able to improve massively with relatively minor tweaks by someone who knows what they're doing.

The catch would be the persistent rumours that Craig (and McDonald) are too involved and get in the way. Hopefully, this is something that EddieG will clear up, and tell them to butt out.
Of course, there are also rumours that Dyson is planning to take over; with his proven history of appointing qualified people and letting them get on with it.


ETA: And the 30-day thing is what's technically known as... not true.

News | Bath Rugby

The official website of Bath Rugby with the latest news, fixture, ticket and merchandise information.

www.bathrugby.com

Bath Rugby to add defence coach ASAP following Ed Griffiths’ review

Director of rugby Stuart Hooper has outlined the three key points for improvement being implemented by bottom of the table Bath

www.somersetlive.co.uk

The review seems to have found exactly what we expected it to in terms of stuff fans can see and understand (who's in what job) and a bunch of stuff that Eddie was actually there to do, but can't really be seen or understood by outsiders.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Lots.
Like England after Lancaster; anyone new would be taking on a very talented group of players who are significantly underperforming - and SHOULD be able to improve massively with relatively minor tweaks by someone who knows what they're doing.

The catch would be the persistent rumours that Craig (and McDonald) are too involved and get in the way. Hopefully, this is something that EddieG will clear up, and tell them to butt out.
Of course, there are also rumours that Dyson is planning to take over; with his proven history of appointing qualified people and letting them get on with it.


ETA: And the 30-day thing is what's technically known as... not true.

News | Bath Rugby

The official website of Bath Rugby with the latest news, fixture, ticket and merchandise information.

www.bathrugby.com

Bath Rugby to add defence coach ASAP following Ed Griffiths’ review

Director of rugby Stuart Hooper has outlined the three key points for improvement being implemented by bottom of the table Bath

www.somersetlive.co.uk

The review seems to have found exactly what we expected it to in terms of stuff fans can see and understand (who's in what job) and a bunch of stuff that Eddie was actually there to do, but can't really be seen or understood by outsiders.

Could see it being Gussie tbh

 

[Which Tyler]

Could see it being Gussie tbh

My principal requirement is that it's someone without any prior connection with Bath. The more I think about it, the more it seems that Tarquin's edict of "grow our own" applies to coaching staff, and has REALLY hamstrung our appointments there.
Showing that that edict has been binned, and the appointment of an actual defence coach, are what I need to see.

Others will, of course, disagree, largely epending on their previously held opinions.

 

[Reiser99]

My principal requirement is that it's someone without any prior connection with Bath. The more I think about it, the more it seems that Tarquin's edict of "grow our own" applies to coaching staff, and has REALLY hamstrung our appointments there.
Showing that that edict has been binned, and the appointment of an actual defence coach, are what I need to see.

Others will, of course, disagree, largely epending on their previously held opinions.

See, grow your own is fine as long you are actually training and promoting the right people. I know I was wrong about Hooper basically going straight into the head coach's role, but I'm sure there were rumours when he actually joined the coaching staff that he was destined for the head coach job at some point in the future. Again that's fine under the grow your own idea as long as he proves he can do the job properly and earned the position. For me I just simply feel like as ex-captain he was given favouritism and has now been shown to be out of his depth.

 

[Which Tyler]

See, grow your own is fine as long you are actually training and promoting the right people.

Exactly.
And if you don't have the right people, hiring from outside the group, rather than doing without

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Exactly.
And if you don't have the right people, hiring from outside the group, rather than doing without

I've always seen "grow you own" as a process, not an outcome. It's great to grow our own but if they ultimately aren't good enough, accept we need an outsider and look at improving the growth process. Exeter and Sarries have shown the strength of growing your own but it's taken years to do. We seem to be under the delusion that we will start it and it will simply click instantly after years of neglect.

 

[Which Tyler]

I've always seen "grow you own" as a process, not an outcome. It's great to grow our own but if they ultimately aren't good enough, accept we need an outsider and look at improving the growth process. Exeter and Sarries have shown the strength of growing your own but it's taken years to do. We seem to be under the delusion that we will start it and it will simply click instantly after years of neglect.

Yup; but I don't think Tarquin allowed for that. By publishing the letter a few years ago, all about growing our own, actually publishing the damned thing, it became a millstone around our necks; and it's compromised our recruitment of players, and hamstrung our recruitment of coaches... and DoR.

Mind, that's still my confirmation bias, because it's what I've been saying for a year or so

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Yup; but I don't think Tarquin allowed for that. By publishing the letter a few years ago, all about growing our own, actually publishing the damned thing, it became a millstone around our necks; and it's compromised our recruitment of players, and hamstrung our recruitment of coaches... and DoR.

Mind, that's still my confirmation bias, because it's what I've been saying for a year or so

To be fair, the Bath academy has actually started turning out good players after being a laughing stock for years. Tarquin just seems to ignore that growing coaching staff is a very different process. You can start as a poor player and grow into a first team starter then an international but you wouldn't make some U20's kid your 1st team captain. That's essentially what we did with Hooper. Get a highly competent core coaching team in, maybe "grow our own" in the support roles and wait for those naturally capable to rise to the top.

 

[Which Tyler]

To be fair, the Bath academy has actually started turning out good players after being a laughing stock for years. Tarquin just seems to ignore that growing coaching staff is a very different process. You can start as a poor player and grow into a first team starter then an international but you wouldn't make some U20's kid your 1st team captain. That's essentially what we did with Hooper. Get a highly competent core coaching team in, maybe "grow our own" in the support roles and wait for those naturally capable to rise to the top.

Yup.
No problem with Ryan Davies and Mark Lilley - they've just risen up the ranks a bit too quickly (Lilley especially).
Equally, I'm fine with Dave Williams - he's got prior connections, but he's also got experience and proven capability. Same goes for Hatley... as a forwards coach; or Hooper... as a hands-off DoR (with an experienced HC to hold his hand)

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Tarquin

This can't be his actual name, surely?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I see a lot of similarities between Bath and Leicester
Tigers had a big grow your own thing.
Tom Hardwick
Jordan Olowofela
George Worth
Ben White
Sam Lewis
Joe Heyes
Tommy Reffell
All became pinups for the Murphy and Cohen administration.

"We were losing but look at all these young players we are playing now", reality was that 1. half weren't good enough, 2. the players around them was pretty damn poor since most of the time they got their game time when the Internationals are away so Hardwick for Ford, Olowofela for May etc.

Borthwick came in and only Heyes and Reffell remain.
You now have Steward, Martin, JVP coming up the academy playing in a far more balanced team granted Borthwick threw them and other younger players to the wolves in his first 6/7 games and kept the ones who showed talent or heart.
But it helps so much to have a good squad that you can just slot the younger players into.

Would Martin, JVP and Steward have benefited from playing with (Picking a team from a Prem game 3 years ago
1. Bateman, 2. Youngs, 3. Cole
4. Mike Williams, 5. Kitchener
6. Martin, 7. Thompson, 8. Kalamafoni
9. JVP, 10. Joe Ford
12. Eastmond, 13. Gareth Owen
11. Olowofela, 14. Thompstone, 15. Steward
Compared to what they are playing in now.

 

[Reiser99]

Would Martin, JVP and Steward have benefited from playing with (Picking a team from a Prem game 3 years ago
1. Bateman, 2. Youngs, 3. Cole
4. Mike Williams, 5. Kitchener
6. Martin, 7. Thompson, 8. Kalamafoni
9. JVP, 10. Joe Ford
12. Eastmond, 13. Gareth Owen
11. Olowofela, 14. Thompstone, 15. Steward
Compared to what they are playing in now.

Just look at that team. For me it screams average players who just want their weekly check. I may be a bit harsh, but look at some of the players who have left.

Bateman - Dragons and played 5 games this year.
Williams - at Bath, coincidence?
Kitchener - Worcester, again basically playing averagely each week
Thompson - Ealing then Jersey
Kalamafoni - Scarlets - don't think he's tearing up trees
Joe Ford - Yorkshire
Eastmond - Back to league and retired
Gareth Owen - Says Newcastle, but I can't see him on their website

Basically there was a lot of dead weight at Leicester a few years ago with more than a few players not pulling their weight and it's not a surprise to see them move on to other teams struggling and stick with the same attitude.

 

[Amiga500]

Yer getting Van Graan from Munster.

Mediocre enough, most in Limerick aren't unhappy at seeing the back of him.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Yer getting Van Graan from Munster.

Mediocre enough, most in Limerick aren't unhappy at seeing the back of him.

Should fit right in then.

 

[Geordie]

Just look at that team. For me it screams average players who just want their weekly check. I may be a bit harsh, but look at some of the players who have left.

Gareth Owen - Says Newcastle, but I can't see him on their website

Basically there was a lot of dead weight at Leicester a few years ago with more than a few players not pulling their weight and it's not a surprise to see them move on to other teams struggling and stick with the same attitude.

Nah we finally got shot of him. Barely played a game for us. Not sure why he was actually signed to be honest.

 

[BPM]

It's a tricky one though because the squad players are often critical.

For a long while Exeter's trump card was having a squad of players who were good but not outstanding and who could play all season. They still have that to some extent, but I'm thinking a couple of years back when the likes of Steenson, Whitten, Yeandle, Moon etc. were a bit younger/still playing.

The hard part is finding the squad players like that who also have the right attitude.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I think it's important for teams and the wider squad to have a strong core of home grown players. More continuity, more people who genuinely care about the club, more relatable with the fans etc. Getting the right blend of those and guns for hire isn't easy and can take time.

Different for coaches. They set the tempo and should be the right man for the job, full stop. And if someone does coach at a former club their playing days should be well behind them so they're not coaching former team mates and they should also have worked elsewhere to broaden their horizons. Yes I know about Baxter, and it's going to be very interesting to see if he can replicate past success now that a lot of his old faithfuls have gone or are running out of road.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think it's important for teams and the wider squad to have a strong core of home grown players. More continuity, more people who genuinely care about the club, more relatable with the fans etc. Getting the right blend of those and guns for hire isn't easy and can take time.

Different for coaches. They set the tempo and should be the right man for the job, full stop. And if someone does coach at a former club their playing days should be well behind them so they're not coaching former team mates and they should also have worked elsewhere to broaden their horizons. Yes I know about Baxter, and it's going to be very interesting to see if he can replicate past success now that a lot of his old faithfuls have gone or are running out of road.

The thing about home grown talent is we have to retain it... Mercer was one of our star academy players and he's gone. Can be highly certain when he returns to England, it will not be at Bath. If the only academy players we can retain are the poor ones nobody else wants then we are investing lots of effort into players who aren't benefitting the club, denying more skilled "guns for hire" due our desperation to use home grown talent and perpetuating the cycle further.