Backline Dilemma for Gatland in the British Lions Team

[Diomedes]

1.McGrath 2.Best 3.Furlong 4.Itoje 5.Kruis 6.Stander 7.Tipuric 8.SOB
9.Murray 10.Sexton 11.Watson/May 12.Henshaw 13.JJ 14.Seymour 15.Williams/Hogg
16.George 17.Vunipola 18.Cole 19.Henderson 20.Vunipola 21.Youngs 22.Farrell 23.Williams/Hogg

I that's your backrow I'd have Stander at 8 and SOB at 6 - they're each more familiar with those positions.

 

[brokenoses]

1. McGrath
2. Best
3. Cole
4. Itoje
5. AWJ (c)
6. Stander
7. Tipuric
8. Vunipola
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Henshaw
13. Joseph
14. Watson
15. Williams

16. George
17. Vunipola
18. Furlong
19. Launchbury
20. O'Brien
21. Youngs
22. Farrell
23. Nowell

 

[valley commando]

Sam Davies wouldn't make an extended Ireland or England squad nevermind the Lions!

********

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Off the top of my head and in no particular order Sexton, Farrell, Ford, Russell, Jackson, Cipriani, Biggar, Madigan, Steenson and Carbery would all make a Lions squad before Davies at the moment (probably a couple more English lads too, don't watch AP)... 4 years time, potentially!

 

[valley commando]

Off the top of my head and in no particular order Sexton, Farrell, Ford, Russell, Jackson, Cipriani, Biggar, Madigan, Steenson and Carbery would all make a Lions squad before Davies at the moment (probably a couple more English lads too, don't watch AP)... 4 years time, potentially!

Wait and see what happens in the 6N if he gets starts you won't be so cocky with your comments, he's better than Biggar, Farrell, Steenson, Jackson, Carberry and Russell now, you obviously haven't seen much of him

 

[munstermuffin]

Off the top of my head and in no particular order Sexton, Farrell, Ford, Russell, Jackson, Cipriani, Biggar, Madigan, Steenson and Carbery would all make a Lions squad before Davies at the moment (probably a couple more English lads too, don't watch AP)... 4 years time, potentially!

Tyler Blenyendaal in mix too in 12 months

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Wait and see what happens in the 6N if he gets starts you won't be so cocky with your comments, he's better than Biggar, Farrell, Steenson, Jackson, Carberry and Russell now, you obviously haven't seen much of him

He's got, what, 3 international caps? How many club caps?

Farrell and Biggar must have close to 50 caps for their country and over a hundred for their club.

Davies very well might go on to something special, but even if he starts every test for Wales he can before next year's tour (5?) I still wouldn't want someone so inexperienced playing for the Lions against New Zealand.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Wait and see what happens in the 6N if he gets starts you won't be so cocky with your comments, he's better than Biggar, Farrell, Steenson, Jackson, Carberry and Russell now, you obviously haven't seen much of him

To suggest Davies can compete with Farrell ATM is ludicrous. Davies is a fine player, and could develop into something excellent, but Farrell is in a different class right now.

 

[welshglory]

If Davies overtakes Biggar for Wales in the 6N then most likely neither of them will go on the tour.

 

[ncurd]

Yeah somehow I don't think you go from 8 international caps to starting for the Lions especially if there are 3 exceptional people in that position already.

You could argue Itoje who only has 7 caps (so far) and is younger should not be included as well on the same ground. But he's put in a fair number MoM performances in a grand slam winning side.

In other words to get yourself noticed for Lions this early in your career you have exceptional in an exceptional side.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Yeah somehow I don't think you go from 8 international caps to starting for the Lions especially if there are 3 exceptional people in that position already.

You could argue who only has 7 caps (so far) and is younger should not be included as well on the same ground. But he's put in a fair number MoM performances in a grand slam winning side.

In other words to get yourself noticed for Lions this early in your career you have exceptional in an exceptional side.

Agree with this, especially in a position like 10.

Is Davies right now as exceptional as George North 4 years ago or Maro right now? Of course not.

 

[Peat]

Yeah somehow I don't think you go from 8 international caps to starting for the Lions especially if there are 3 exceptional people in that position already.

You could argue who only has 7 caps (so far) and is younger should not be included as well on the same ground. But he's put in a fair number MoM performances in a grand slam winning side.

In other words to get yourself noticed for Lions this early in your career you have exceptional in an exceptional side.

Three exceptional people is a bit much. Ford is wonderful but is a little too up and down at times, particularly with the goal kicking. Farrell has a pretty bad record against elite teams as a fly-half. Maybe that would be different if he'd had a fly-half shirt this year; maybe we'd have lost more games. Sexton's the only guy who's really proven as to being up to the standard in every way. I feel a bit weird and biased for saying it, but based on starting records, you'd want Paddy Jackson as a fly-half for facing a SANZAR country before you'd want Farrell.

 

[BPM]

Wait and see what happens in the 6N if he gets starts you won't be so cocky with your comments, he's better than Biggar, Farrell, Steenson, Jackson, Carberry and Russell now, you obviously haven't seen much of him

Laughable. If Sam Davies is really that good, you wouldn't have needed to say 'IF he starts' ... He'd have to be a nailed-on starter for Wales before he's even in the conversation and as you've already pointed out with your 'if', he's not.

 

[ncurd]

Yeah exceptional was probably a bit of hyperbole (less than suggesting Davies will start though). How about proven quality players who on their day can be exceptional?

 

[Peat]

Yeah exceptional was probably a bit of hyperbole (less than suggesting Davies will start though). How about proven quality players who on their day can be exceptional?

The Davies thing is best ignored.

I'd still quibble with that for Farrell tbh. He's won little of note as an international fly-half and its made all the starker by the difference Ford makes with roughly the same team.

I don't know. He is a proven international player... but I'm not sure about proven quality. And that game against NZ aside, I struggle to think of games where he's been exceptional against teams that could beat us in matches that matter in a 10 shirt (other than from the kicking tee).

He ideally needs a run of internationals at 10 to make his case that he's grown.

 

[Every Time Ref]

I've never been a huge Farrell fan, very pleased at how much EJ has got out of him at 12 but I would put it down to a good coach on a Golden run having built a gameplan around the players in front of him. I think that included picking certain players on personality (Geech's "test match animals") despite their flaws and building a plan to fit their strengths. Farrell, alongside Hartley and Brown, was a major beneficiary of that IMO.

Basically, I suspect his impact at IC is the result of the systems/gameplan and wouldn't necessarily translate to the Lions either at 10 or 12. Although he is quite a Gatlandy FH so who knows.

 

[Which Tyler]

I asm far from being a Fazlet fan. However, he has steadily improved each year for the last 3 - he looked a different man when he cam back from the lion's.
Ahead of the RWC 14 months ago, he was actually looking like a serviceable international FH; albeit one who looks like a stop-gap whilst waiting for a more talented player to arrive.
He improved again last year, both for England and for Saracens, and he's up to the point of being an actually decent international level FH, albeit one who suits a strict gameplan which doesn't involve much subtlety or variety; who can play exactly the same game at IC (where I've always felt he'd be better suited ever since his U20 days in that shirt); and where he has that bit more time on the ball, and needs a little less awareness of what's in front of other players.

He's perfect for Gatball - the trouble is, we know that Gatball simply won't work against NZ, and will get us a humping; which is why he'd only make my match-day 23 in the event of injury - he'd certainly make the plane though, and would make a great dirt-tracker.

 

[Peat]

Does decent count as quality?

I don't think he's even perfect for Gatball. Wales looked scary when they had Stephen Jones and for that brief moment when Rhys Priestland was a talented international fly-half i.e. guys who could run and play on the gain line. They've been nowhere with Biggar, who Farrell is much more like. I don't think this is complete coincidence, if you want to play with that sort of directness the fly-half needs to be as flat and threatening as possible. That's not Farrell.

 

[Which Tyler]

Does decent count as quality?

Somewhere between "acceptable" and "quality"

 

[Every Time Ref]

Does decent count as quality?

I don't think he's even perfect for Gatball. Wales looked scary when they had Stephen Jones and for that brief moment when Rhys Priestland was a talented international fly-half i.e. guys who could run and play on the gain line. They've been nowhere with Biggar, who Farrell is much more like. I don't think this is complete coincidence, if you want to play with that sort of directness the fly-half needs to be as flat and threatening as possible. That's not Farrell.

I think the point is there is no game plan which is not improved by a flyhalf who does this, without requiring any other changes in plan or personnel. We talk about "basics" in terms of scrumhalfs' passing, props' scrummaging etc. but IMO playmaking is a basic requirement of a FH at any level.

My major issue with Faz is what kind of FH is he? He isn't a playmaker who puts others into space, commits defenders and creates gaps - but neither is he a great tactical kicker who controls territory and kicks to the corners all the time. A 10 should specialise in one and at least be passably good at the other; I see Faz as passable at both.