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Argentinian Rugby

saulan said:
I'm having a discussion about this at work and it would be great to get some insight from some of you guys here.

Why are the Jaguares XV playing in the Currie Cup 2nd division? Surely it's quite an expensive exercise to have a team based in South Africa for however many months this tournament runs? What is the domestic tournament setup like in Argentina? Is this a factor of nothing competitive enough within Argentina to ensure the players develop? Or is there a lack of funding to organise a multi team Argentinian domestic tournament, or a lack of skilled domestic players?

We really know nothing here so would be great to get some insight.
Click to expand...

It might be expensive but they'll be in SA for 2 months maximum

Jaguares XV arrived in SA at beginning of July & they'll be out of the country by the end of August
They're based in a University Campus learning English & developing as young players and men

They're living in a city 1,300m above sea level Training & playing Home games there as well
This will come in handy when they play games in the Highveld for the Jaguares and Pumas

The question is how long it'll take for the Jaguares to dominate the 1st division & if they're
allowed or eligible to play in the Currie Cup Premier Division and take on big boys in
Free State WP, Sharks Bulls and Lions

https://twitter.com/Perrugby/status/1148361086892224512
 
hbijbjon said:
Jaguares XV arrived in SA at beginning of July & they'll be out of the country by the end of August
They're based in a University Campus learning English & developing as young players and men
Click to expand...

That's a pretty great thing (getting them to learn english). Even if professional rugby doesn't work out for all of them, at the very least they should all come out of this with a decent english speaking ability (both from being in SA and from learning it in the Uni). Personally I also like the fact that there is this strong relationship between South African and Argentinian rugby, and that we are doing quite a bit to help develop the rugby there.

But there is still the question of why? Is there not enough funding or enough high quality players to create a strong domestic tournament within Argentina? Is there not a tournament already?

I haven't seen anything that prevents them from being promoted ( @heineken, have you seen anything different?) but I don't think it will be easy for them, even if they do get promoted. For the Jaguares, this is essentially the youth/second team to the Jags as all the best players will be in the Rugby Championship, whereas for the Bulls, Sharks, Western Province and Lions, it's the Super Rugby team minus 5-8 players each, so still pretty formidable and most players will Super Rugby experience. That will be tough to play against, but good to develop the players with strong opposition.
 
saulan said:
That's a pretty great thing (getting them to learn english). Even if professional rugby doesn't work out for all of them, at the very least they should all come out of this with a decent english speaking ability (both from being in SA and from learning it in the Uni). Personally I also like the fact that there is this strong relationship between South African and Argentinian rugby, and that we are doing quite a bit to help develop the rugby there.

But there is still the question of why? Is there not enough funding or enough high quality players to create a strong domestic tournament within Argentina? Is there not a tournament already?

I haven't seen anything that prevents them from being promoted ( @heineken, have you seen anything different?) but I don't think it will be easy for them, even if they do get promoted. For the Jaguares, this is essentially the youth/second team to the Jags as all the best players will be in the Rugby Championship, whereas for the Bulls, Sharks, Western Province and Lions, it's the Super Rugby team minus 5-8 players each, so still pretty formidable and most players will Super Rugby experience. That will be tough to play against, but good to develop the players with strong opposition.
Click to expand...

I have alot of time for SA rugby, they've been a good friend to ARG rugby

I'll ask that the ARG based members to add more detail but from what I can gather
ARG rugby is still amateur There's no CC, Mitre 10 professional 2nd tier competition
over there

The largest league in ARG is run by URBA who are the Buenos Aires RU

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torneo_de_la_URBA

This is an amateur competition & professional players aren't allowed to play for these sides

Essentially Argentina is like most rugby nations before 1995 in that they remain an entirely
amateur set up in their rugby
 
saulan said:
That's a pretty great thing (getting them to learn english). Even if professional rugby doesn't work out for all of them, at the very least they should all come out of this with a decent english speaking ability (both from being in SA and from learning it in the Uni). Personally I also like the fact that there is this strong relationship between South African and Argentinian rugby, and that we are doing quite a bit to help develop the rugby there.

But there is still the question of why? Is there not enough funding or enough high quality players to create a strong domestic tournament within Argentina? Is there not a tournament already?

I haven't seen anything that prevents them from being promoted ( @heineken, have you seen anything different?) but I don't think it will be easy for them, even if they do get promoted. For the Jaguares, this is essentially the youth/second team to the Jags as all the best players will be in the Rugby Championship, whereas for the Bulls, Sharks, Western Province and Lions, it's the Super Rugby team minus 5-8 players each, so still pretty formidable and most players will Super Rugby experience. That will be tough to play against, but good to develop the players with strong opposition.
Click to expand...

I don't think there is a professional tournament in Argentina yet. I know they are planning to have a South American type of tournament with teams from Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay and maybe Chile all competing. Last I read about that, was that they're planning to kickstart this tournament later this year consisting of 8 teams. But I don't know anything more than that.

But just to get back to the Jaguares XV in the Currie Cup first division. AFAIK the ARU and SARU have an agreement where SARU is funding the Jaguares just like they're funding the other teams in the tournament to a certain extent. The team is also getting a portion of the ticket sales for their "home" games where they are based, and the classes the guys are attending, are also being funded.
 
Nope, there's not such a thing as a pro rugby championship in ARG. South american thing is the only plan at the time, to help other countries raise their level and so.

Someone linked an interview to Pichot, asking him about the plan argentina had in 2008 and how they made it here and how they negociate these deals (like the Curry Cup for jaguares xv), maybe google translator can help ya out.

Almost forgot:

England coach Eddie Jones has cruelly dismissed the Jaguares' Super Rugby influence on Argentina ahead of the Rugby World Cup.

The South American outfit made their first Super Rugby final on the back of an outstanding season before being outsmarted 19-3 by the champion Crusaders in Christchurch last weekend.

Many, including All Blacks coach Steve Hansen, believe the steady development of the Jaguares in the southern hemisphere provincial extravaganza will benefit Argentina's World Cup cause, especially with the side stacked with so many Pumas who will now pull on test jerseys.
Click to expand...

the whole article: https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby...dismisses-jaguares-growing-influence-on-pumas

I am always quite keen on beating england anyway, but they really go outta their way to be unlikable.
 
Last edited:
England is going to be a hard match but winning or losing has no real effect whatsoever we only need France(offcourse Tonga and Usa but i asume we can beat them). After that it´s either Aus or Wales and both teams are hard for us historicaly.

I would prefeer Aus though.
 
Currie Cup dying
1f634.png
Time to give it some life

Allow Jaguares XV to play WP Bulls Lions Sharks Free State etc

Latin flair & skill in South Africa teach teams some lessons

They crushed Boland today who made the semi final of the SS Rugby Challenge

https://twitter.com/JaguaresARG/status/1150042976451776512
 
hbijbjon said:
Currie Cup dying
1f634.png
Time to give it some life
Allow Jaguares XV to play WP Bulls Lions Sharks Free State etc
Click to expand...
Where did you get it as dying from?

Are you familiar with the currie cup at all? You just cant introduce a new team to a 130 year old competition and expect them to be placed on the top tier from day 1. There are procedures and protocols in place and they need to be followed. There is a promotion/relegation mechanism.
History has to be respected.

I am not sure if we agreed not to be promoted (as the pampas did a few years ago).
 
FNS said:
Its me but i dont give a damn about this year RC. I just want to have all the players healthy for the RWC.
Click to expand...

Well, based on the media you are not alone jaja... considering we are facing the abs this weekend... Moreover, we are facing, in my opinion, a weakened side (no Whitelock, nor Read, etc.), new faces, no june test, etc. On the other hand, we have a nice momentum... I don't want to say it but it's a very good oportunity...
 
Nah.
I'm with FNS.
Let the guys rest, they've had a long season, travelling all over the place. Its a world cup year and you need to prioritize.
Lose all the RC games if you have to, and let the world think we are not that good.
We'll bring a rested and strong team and kick them on the chin when it matters.
 
Suddenly we are talking in english...

Don't get me wrong, the rwc is the priority for sure, but so it is for the ABs. I have to say, I'm particulary excited about this game in particular maybe not the RC as a whole. I don't want to see you celebrating if we beat them... :eek:

Regarding the RWC, I think we are already on everybody's radar with the SR campaign. I have the feeling that we will beat France and against England, despite being underdogs, can go either way. However I don't know if I prefer Wales or Aus for QF but was thinking that from a SF perspective it would be better not to top the pool. Anyway, first we have to qualify...


P.d: Poor Urdapilleta, he is ok for last game I think.
 
I guess this is where we disagree (not that there is anything wrong with that).

justanargie said:
Don't get me wrong, the rwc is the priority for sure, but so it is for the ABs.
Click to expand...
You cant have two priorities between the two things you are trying to prioritize. If everything is a priority then nothing is a priority.
The idea of prioritizing is, precisely, to sacrifice one or part of one in order to allocate more resources to the other.

For me, especially given the year we had (tons of traveling, more games, less rotation than the rest) and give the group we have (Fra, Tonga, Eng are the first 3 games, all very physical) i would avoid risks in the RC.

Again, it's fine to disagree. I am just willing to sacrifice all the RC for a better chance at the WC.
 
Not that I have two priorities, maybe my english is not very clear. I was saying that the ABs have the priority of the RWC too, so they are resting players too and that increases our chances.
Anyway, not a logic opinion at all, behaving like a fan here... btw there is not even a RC forum. Guess everybody in SH thinking like you, but Velez sold out ;)
 
Cruz_del_Sur said:
I guess this is where we disagree (not that there is anything wrong with that).


You cant have two priorities between the two things you are trying to prioritize. If everything is a priority then nothing is a priority.
The idea of prioritizing is, precisely, to sacrifice one or part of one in order to allocate more resources to the other.

For me, especially given the year we had (tons of traveling, more games, less rotation than the rest) and give the group we have (Fra, Tonga, Eng are the first 3 games, all very physical) i would avoid risks in the RC.

Again, it's fine to disagree. I am just willing to sacrifice all the RC for a better chance at the WC.
Click to expand...

I largely agree with this sentiment

However I would go very hard for the 1st 2 games in TRC

1st games in Buenos Aires is a chance to ambush NZ

NZ missing 8 guys from Crusaders who would make their Matchday 23

Jaguares players will be ****** off they slipped a chance to win the SR final

Pumas should play their best side for sure in this Game

2nd game is in AUS Easiest place to win in theory vs a side very vulnerable atm

Plus AUS have to travel back from SA as well so their home advantage will be limited

After those 2 games Pumas should rotate heavily for last 2 games vs SA

These last 2 matches mean nothing

P.S. Is the 1st home game vs NZ sold out?
 
justanargie said:
I was saying that the ABs have the priority of the RWC too, so they are resting players too and that increases our chances.
Click to expand...
Our chances? What do you think our chances are? 50%? 20%? 10%? 5%? 1%?

I think, realistically, we need to have our best team pushed to the limit and beyond AND for them to have a bad day in order for us to beat them. Sad but true.
That is, exactly, when injuries happen. It's part of the game, true, but during a world cup year, i would try to manage this differently.

On top of that, there is a big difference between both teams.
The ABs had their team distributed throughout 4 teams so they could rest, while we, having all the national team in the same SR franchise, couldn't do that (we could but they obviously rested more). Their players are all better rested than ours. That is why managing rest will be critical for us.
I am not sure, there might be a south african team that traveled just as much, but we are top 3 for sure in terms of how much travel we've been through. It has been a very intense year, AND it is a world cup year. Something has got to give.

You want to take risks and go all in? Sure, go ahead... but do so during a non-world cup year.

Let me ask you this hypothetical question: If I could guarantee a win against the ABs and offered you such victory but that would mean that say, Matera and de la Fuente both get injured and have to miss the world cup, would you take it? Yes or no?

I know my answer.

hbijbjon said:
I largely agree with this sentiment

However I would go very hard for the 1st 2 games in TRC
Click to expand...
A: What color is the ball
Cruz: Blue.
hbijbjon: i largely agree with cruz, however it is red.

Sorry, couldnt resist.
 
Well, I'll start for the last, I wouldn't take any injury, let's avoid that cruel excercise jaja....
Joke aside, I understand your point but we have to play, do you think Ledesma is going to (or should) field a B team the first match? Why, to rest the SR finalists? I think he must rotate between the four games, but personally, I would field an strong team against the ABs for the reasons mentioned above. I think the advantages of winning this match, would be massive in terms of self steem for the rwc, I don't have to say this. Of course we are heavy underdogs but I think it's our best chance in many years. This is a feeling, opinion, don't ask me to take it to the mathematical field (we can check the odds in NZ in last matches in BA if possible, it would be interesting with last jaguares performance and 2019 abs).

What you are saying of Hansen having different NZ franchises to pick players is true in terms of rest but also is bad in terms of cohesion. Moreover they didn't play june tests while we played all SR together.
So, summing up I'll field the stronger possible team in the RC against NZ. By possible, I mean if I think Petti is not in good shape because of the minutes played in the SR, of course do not take that risk.
 

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