Are South Africa Missing out on players with huge potential ?

[Peat]

Should be pointed out that Tonks moved to England when he was 2, so hardly a miss by the system.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I agree with Stormer - the overall quality and depth of the CC and SR sides would probably increase somewhat, but I don't think Heyneke Meyer's team would change at all were those players still in SA.
I don't think that SA rugby in general would be in an appreciably stronger position where those players to have stayed.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I agree with Stormer - the overall quality and depth of the CC and SR sides would probably increase somewhat, but I don't think Heyneke Meyer's team would change at all were those players still in SA.
I don't think that SA rugby in general would be in an appreciably stronger position where those players to have stayed.

There is even an argument to be made that we might have been worse off;

Lets say Grant is not in Japan and Morne Steyn not in France. In that case Handre Pollard might have had to wait around a few more years before getting a call up. This is just one instance but many of our younger Bokke would've found making the test side more difficult without either those above them moving off or us having more than the 5 teams.

Just to add some other players for I'mScotty;

Daniel Coetzee
Antonie Claassen (both for France)
Justin Melck (Germany)
Hendre Fourie (England) though he isn't playing any more but you have a few 'oldies' there so I thought I'd mention these
Dan Vickerman
Clyde Rathbone (both Aussie)

 

[Peat]

Debatable Fourie and Mouritz Botha would have even made Super Rugby if they'd stayed there.

Robbie Diack's another for the list.

 

[Thingimubob]

Lol just noticed Andries Pretorious got counted... Only has a Wales cap because 4 back rowers were off with the Lions. Got pretty out muscled by the Japanese if I remember correctly.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

There is even an argument to be made that we might have been worse off;

Lets say Grant is not in Japan and Morne Steyn not in France. In that case Handre Pollard might have had to wait around a few more years before getting a call up. This is just one instance but many of our younger Bokke would've found making the test side more difficult without either those above them moving off or us having more than the 5 teams.

Just to add some other players for I'mScotty;

Daniel Coetzee
Antonie Claassen (both for France)
Justin Melck (Germany)
Hendre Fourie (England) though he isn't playing any more but you have a few 'oldies' there so I thought I'd mention these
Dan Vickerman
Clyde Rathbone (both Aussie)

thanks for that and if we were talking about the past then NZ had Andrew Mehrtens too

 

[TRF_heineken]

Honestly, of all the players mentioned, only CJ Stander might have been a prospect for the Boks. He had a great season with the Bulls before moving North, but I doubt that he would have been selected at that time, with the crop the Boks had in his position. And now it would be even harder for him.

I Would even go as far as saying that he'll struggle to make the Bulls current squad. He'll probably make the Kings squad for Super Rugby.

All these guys were average in SA. they are not Springbok material, apart from Kockott and Stander. But as Stormer has said, Kockott's attitude was the reason he left SA, and we don't want him back.

5 of my personal friends have travelled to the NH to have a semi-pro/proffessional rugby career. Ask all of them why, and they would tell you it's for 2 reasons. 1. The Money and 2. they wouldn't have made the cut to play for a big franchise. One of them used to play for the SWD Eagles in SA, but he only played in their Vodacom Cup tournament at that time. He then went to Italy and played for a team on the island of Sardinia. He was there for 3 seasons, then came back and opened his own gym.

I honestly think that we are not missing out. Our Pool is just too big for the amount of teams we have, and we have so many guys coming through the ranks at an alarming rate. Sure we will have the odd one or two guys slip through our fingers, but every time we do, we get a gem of a player, like Marcel Coetzee.

you guys mentioned Richardt Strauss. Well I would say, so what?? he's not better than his cousin (Adriaan Strauss) or Bismarck. He's also not better than Schalk Brits. Maybe he's equal to a guy like Chilliboy Ralepelle.

 

[ruggabee]

Missing out on "huge" potential? I don't think so. But as said before, they would be handy in filling up domestic squads plus the conveyor belt of talent is bound to produce another of equal or better potential/ability. Probably a win for SA.

 

[nickdnz]

Is New Zealand missing out on players with huge potential?!

Quade Cooper
Digby Ioane
Sean Maitland
Dylan Hartley
Thomas Waldrom
Jared Payne
Shontayne Hape
Alex Tulou
Nathan White
Bundee Aki
Ken Pisi
Khan Fotuali'i
Jack Lam
Anthony Perenise
Leroy Houston
Kane Thompson
Daniel Leo
James Johnston
Census Johnston
Gareth Anscombe
Ben Botica
Alofa Alofa
Ahsee Tuala
Siale Piatau
Michael Bent

etc, etc, etc. You just can't keep em all.

 

[Bull]

A lot of players also move north or to Japan because of quotas and we'll be seeing more of that in the coming years.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Is New Zealand missing out on players with huge potential?!

Quade Cooper
Digby Ioane
Sean Maitland
Dylan Hartley
Thomas Waldrom
Jared Payne
Shontayne Hape
Alex Tulou
Nathan White
Bundee Aki
Ken Pisi
Khan Fotuali'i
Jack Lam
Anthony Perenise
Leroy Houston
Kane Thompson
Daniel Leo
James Johnston
Census Johnston
Gareth Anscombe
Ben Botica
Alofa Alofa
Ahsee Tuala
Siale Piatau
Michael Bent

etc, etc, etc. You just can't keep em all.

Yeah Exactly. At top level it's not about quantity, but quality...

 

[NamWarrior]

Currently the only players I would pick for the boks would be kockott and spedding.

It's the next few years that worry me with every man and their dog disappearing to the northern hemisphere

 

[TobesHodges]

Scott Spedding

 

[smartcooky]

I believe CJ Stander played underage for South Africa so he can't play for Ireland? Not 100% sure on this so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Playing age group (i.e. U20) doesn't capture eligibility unless

[a] That country's National Union has nominated their U20 team as their "next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team" under WR Regulation 8.5

AND

That country's U20 team plays against the U20 team of another country that has also nominated their U20 team as their "next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team".

Only three National Unions have nominated their U20 teams as theirnext senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team; South Africa, Wales and France, so, U20 matches between those three countries are the only age-group matches that capture eligibility. A couple of years ago there was a player who wanted to play for Scotland (Steven Shingler IIRC), but he didn't realise his eligibility was captured for Wales when he played for Wales U20 v France U20


-----
FYI
[TEXTAREA]Regulation 8.5.
When is a Player deemed to have played for the senior or next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team of a Union or a Union's senior National Representative Sevens Team? As a result of the one Union only rule, in particular, it is essential that Players and Unions understand the situations in which Players will be deemed to have played for the senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team or the next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team of a Union or a Union's senior National Representative Sevens Team. These situations are set out in Regulations 8.3 and 8.4. Players and Unions shall, at all times, have regard to the full terms of Regulations 8.3 and 8.4, however, by way of a summary only, the situations set out below are covered:

Fifteen-a-side

(a) Players who participate in International Matches for the senior National Representative Team or the next senior National Representative Team of a Union against the senior or next senior National Representative Team of another Union.

(b) Players selected to represent a Union's senior Touring Squad who participate in any Match played by members of that Union's senior Touring Squad during an International Tour provided such International Tour includes an International Match(es) approved by the IRB.

(c) Players who participate in a Match for the senior or next senior National Representative Team of a Union against a team made up of Players from a Union's senior Touring Squad during an International Tour which includes International Match(es) approved by the IRB.

(d) Players, representing a Union's next senior Touring Squad who participate in a Match on an International Tour approved by the IRB against the senior National Representative Team or the next senior National Representative Team or the next senior National Representative Team of another Union.

(e) Players who play for the senior or next senior National Representative Team of a Union against a team selected from a Union's next senior Touring Squad when such Match is played on an International Tour approved by the IRB.[/TEXTAREA]


More FYI

Nominated next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Teams as of 2012
* no other Unions have nominated a next senior fifteen-a-side team

Argentina: Argentina A
Australia: Australian Barbarians
Canada: Canada A
England: Englands Saxons
Fiji: Fiji Warriors
France: France U20
Ireland: Irish Wolfhounds
Italy: Italia Emergenti
Japan: Japan A
New Zealand: Junior All Blacks (New Zealand A)
Romania: Romania A
Samoa: Samoa A
Scotland: Scotland A
South Africa: South Africa U20
Tonga: Tonga A
USA: USA Select
Wales: Wales U20

 

[Jaguares]

Is New Zealand missing out on players with huge potential?!

Quade Cooper
Digby Ioane
Sean Maitland
Dylan Hartley
Thomas Waldrom
Jared Payne
Shontayne Hape
Alex Tulou
Nathan White
Bundee Aki
Ken Pisi
Khan Fotuali'i
Jack Lam
Anthony Perenise
Leroy Houston
Kane Thompson
Daniel Leo
James Johnston
Census Johnston
Gareth Anscombe
Ben Botica
Alofa Alofa
Ahsee Tuala
Siale Piatau
Michael Bent

etc, etc, etc. You just can't keep em all.

Is Australia missing out on players with huge potential?!

Greg Inglis
Billy Slater
Jarryd Hayne
Matt Scott
Corey Parker
Cameron Smith
Johnathan Thurston
Sam Thaiday
Daly Cherry-Evans
Paul Gallen

Etc, etc, etc.

Is USA missing out on players with huge potential?!

Adrian Peterson
Marshawn Lynch
Calvin Jonhson
Demaryius Thomas
Eddie Lacy
Jamaal Charles
JJ Watt
Vernon Davis
Jimmy Graham
LeSean McCoy
Demarco Murray

Etc, etc, etc.

 

[nickdnz]

Is Australia missing out on players with huge potential?!

Greg Inglis
Billy Slater
Jarryd Hayne
Matt Scott
Corey Parker
Cameron Smith
Johnathan Thurston
Sam Thaiday
Daly Cherry-Evans
Paul Gallen

Etc, etc, etc.

Is USA missing out on players with huge potential?!

Adrian Peterson
Marshawn Lynch
Calvin Jonhson
Demaryius Thomas
Eddie Lacy
Jamaal Charles
JJ Watt
Vernon Davis
Jimmy Graham
LeSean McCoy
Demarco Murray

Etc, etc, etc.

Well, technically New Zealand loses plenty of players to the NRL as well...

I don't think losing rugby union players which have been developed by one union, to other unions - is the same as losing potential rugby union players to other codes. Simply put there is no loss of investment, or any quantifiable way of measuring their success in a different sport.

 

[doz1991]

Is New Zealand missing out on players with huge potential?!

Quade Cooper - moved to aus when he was 13 and learnt his rugby at school.
Digby Ioane - moved to aus at 2 lol
Sean Maitland
Dylan Hartley
Thomas Waldrom
Jared Payne
Shontayne Hape
Alex Tulou
Nathan White
Bundee Aki
Ken Pisi
Khan Fotuali'i
Jack Lam
Anthony Perenise
Leroy Houston - moved to aus at 14 played U20
Kane Thompson
Daniel Leo
James Johnston
Census Johnston
Gareth Anscombe
Ben Botica
Alofa Alofa - moved to aus at 4 lol
Ahsee Tuala
Siale Piatau
Michael Bent

etc, etc, etc. You just can't keep em all.

The reason why those guys moved to aus are because of financial resons, they arent lost from new zealand because new zealand never devolped them in the first place

 

[smartcooky]

The reason why those guys moved to aus are because of financial resons, they arent lost from new zealand because new zealand never devolped them in the first place

What a load of unmitigated CRAP!

Sean Maitland
Thomas Waldrom
Jared Payne
Bundee Aki
Ken Pisi
Khan Fotuali'i
Jack Lam
Anthony Perenise
Kane Thompson
Daniel Leo
James Johnston
Census Johnston
Gareth Anscombe
Ben Botica

All were developed through the NZ schools, academy, age group, club rugby system. They all played ITM Cup and some went on to play NZ Super Rugby franchises.

Not to mention that most of the players on Nick's original list you commented on moved to UK, Ireland or France, not Australia

And Shontayne Hape was an Auckland Warrior and NZ Kiwis rugby league player FFS!

 

[Peat]

Maybe he's just talking about the guys who he highlighted as early movers...?

 

[smartcooky]

Maybe he's just talking about the guys who he highlighted as early movers...?

Then delete the ones he's not talking about, like I did!!