All Blacks squad named tomorrow. Who Will make it?

[Black Heart]

He played fullback for either Canterbury of the Crusaders in a final, back in like 2004 So although that was a while ago, it was in a match of much importance.

That being said, I'm sure he could probably slip in to most positions and make a good fist of it...

Yeah true. ok, thanks.

 

[Darwin]

When was the last time Carter played 15 and for who?

Genuine question, I'm interested.

Good question. He played there quite a bit when he first started for Canterbury (4 starts in 2004 at 15), and he started in 15 in 2005 for the Crusaders. I have seen him shift to fullback during a game more recently than that, but I can't remember when it was. Obviously being the best 10 in the world means it would be silly to take him away from the playmaker role, but I have no doubt he would still make a very good fullback these days.

 

[TRF_heineken]

maybe i didn't elaborate more... would NZ really gamble with Carter playing anywhere else but fly half? i think slade showed this weekend he's not up for the pivot spot. to me Carter should only play fly half.

Hoeata wasn't in that squad originally mentioned, and i based my opinions on that squad. but yeah he can play flanker, lock and no. 8.

John Afoa had a really hard time on the weekend and i'll be surprized if he gets any game time during the world cup.

Weepu needs to be scrumhalf, that's it... to me he's the best scrum half in NZ and he shouldn't play anywhere else. as for the combinations, Nonu and Smith are the best fit centre pair, to break them up will be a problem, with SBW as back-up.

 

[Black Heart]

maybe i didn't elaborate more... would NZ really gamble with Carter playing anywhere else but fly half? i think slade showed this weekend he's not up for the pivot spot. to me Carter should only play fly half.

Hoeata wasn't in that squad originally mentioned, and i based my opinions on that squad. but yeah he can play flanker, lock and no. 8.

John Afoa had a really hard time on the weekend and i'll be surprized if he gets any game time during the world cup.

Weepu needs to be scrumhalf, that's it... to me he's the best scrum half in NZ and he shouldn't play anywhere else. as for the combinations, Nonu and Smith are the best fit centre pair, to break them up will be a problem, with SBW as back-up.

Slade had one resonably poor game. But he's not a poor player. Not to mention he was playing in a weakened squad.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

maybe i didn't elaborate more... would NZ really gamble with Carter playing anywhere else but fly half? i think slade showed this weekend he's not up for the pivot spot. to me Carter should only play fly half.

Hoeata wasn't in that squad originally mentioned, and i based my opinions on that squad. but yeah he can play flanker, lock and no. 8.

John Afoa had a really hard time on the weekend and i'll be surprized if he gets any game time during the world cup.

Weepu needs to be scrumhalf, that's it... to me he's the best scrum half in NZ and he shouldn't play anywhere else. as for the combinations, Nonu and Smith are the best fit centre pair, to break them up will be a problem, with SBW as back-up.

Hang on, are you saying we dont' have enough players that aren't better in one particular position?

We wouldn't move Carter away from first five not because he'd perform poorly, rather it'd be silly to move the best first five in the world away from his preferred position.

The only players in the squad that can't play more than one position would be Woodcock, the locks (they can cover both lock positions, but I don't count that), Cowan, Ellis and Smith.

 

[Shaggy]

Looks like Crockett has missed out to Afoa, Sivivatu and Gear both out, and Messam has missed out to Vito ... only speculation on Radio sport, in NZ, based on who has returned home to NZ, and who has stayed in Brisbane

 

[FlukeArtist]

If what the media is reporting is true, I think they have made the right call omitting those players.
Some had to be cut, and I think the coaching staff/selectors made the right call in the end.
Sivivatu could be considered a bit unlucky, as he played probably the best I had seen out of him for a while, but when you're faced with choosing him over Dagg, Jane or Toeava, I know which way I would go.
Gear has been to quiet to warrant selection IMO.
And Messam simply isn't up to international standard. He has been given plenty of opportunities, but fails to deliver on the highest stage. May as well let Vito have a crack - he'll only be back up to back ups.

 

[Larksea]

yeah looks like Messam is out, look at this pic as he arrives at auckland airport he looks like his heart has been ripped out.

http://liammessam.blogspot.com/2011/08/liam-messam-at-auckland-airport.html

honestly I think it's just stupid. I actually watched the game again last night, no he wasn't brilliant but he did nothing wrong and did a number of good things and far as the forwards as a whole went he had a better game than Mealamu who was very average and missed a number of tackles, Afoa who went back in the scrum and hardly touched the ball, Williams who made a couple silly mistakes and thompson who gave away silly penalties in kicking range and Jerome Kaino hardly outplayed Messam - they had pretty much similar games. If it came to the crunch and someone needed to fill in as a loose forward in a big game would you want Messam who will give 100% and keep his nose clean or thompson who has a history of giving away penalties at the wrong time in the wrong part of the field, the kind of penalties that will lose a close game.. ?

The coaches have over reacted, the reality is that if it was Vito that was selected in the origional squad it would have been messam playing in the ITM cup tearing up the park as Captian of waikato while Vito warmed the bench with little gametime while the All Blacks squad has been together.

 

[Shaggy]

yeah looks like Messam is out, look at this pic as he arrives at auckland airport he looks like his heart has been ripped out.

http://liammessam.blogspot.com/2011/08/liam-messam-at-auckland-airport.html

honestly I think it's just stupid. I actually watched the game again last night, no he wasn't brilliant but he did nothing wrong and did a number of good things and far as the forwards as a whole went he had a better game than Mealamu who was very average and missed a number of tackles, Afoa who went back in the scrum and hardly touched the ball, Williams who made a couple silly mistakes and thompson who gave away silly penalties in kicking range and Jerome Kaino hardly outplayed Messam - they had pretty much similar games. If it came to the crunch and someone needed to fill in as a loose forward in a big game would you want Messam who will give 100% and keep his nose clean or thompson who has a history of giving away penalties at the wrong time in the wrong part of the field, the kind of penalties that will lose a close game.. ?

The coaches have over reacted, the reality is that if it was Vito that was selected in the origional squad it would have been messam playing in the ITM cup tearing up the park as Captian of waikato while Vito warmed the bench with little gametime while the All Blacks squad has been together.

I must admit that I thought that if Messam was going to miss out, that a specialist openside would be named ... I agree with FlukeArtist, that Sivivatu (and Gear too) are unlucky, but some of the outside backs were always going to be unlucky.

... it seems that Hoeata may have missed out to Boric too

 

[FlukeArtist]

@ Larksea,

Yeah you can say "Messam played better than such and such" But your statement is contentious IMO, as:
1. Mealamu was probably one of the better All Blacks on the park, whilst Messam made 6 or 7 runs for a massive 30m, and his tackle stats were nothing impressive.
2. We know what all those other players that you bagged CAN do at International level. I have never seen Messam play a decent/standout game at International level. Whilst I have seen Vito make some good contributions.
3. The statement you made about Messam ripping it up for Waikato is probably true, but that is because that is just his level really. He has not ever made the step above that. Good provincial player, but not up to International standard (much like Donald)
4. And to answer your question- I'd rather have Thomson. So he gets penalised- so does McCaw. Shows that he is probably playing closer to the breakdowns and turnovers than Messam does. Then there is his ability to cover all loose forward positions if required (though 6 is his best position). Thomson is just a better player than Messam.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

So, if Messam os dropped for Vito, the timeline would be something like this:

1.- Messam gets the call ahead of Vito due to his Super Rugby form.
2.- He performs acceptably but not extraordinarilly for the All Blacks.
3.- Vito gets a call-up because McCaw and Read are being rested.
4.- Vito plays 15-odd minutes of unimpressive rugby.
5.- Vito gets chosen ahead of Messam.

I can see no criterion under which Vito deserves the call-up over Messam that was not already true before the 3N squad was named. Don't get me wrong: I'm a big Vito fan and I would have him over Messam any day, but what Graham Henry is doing is both very rude to Messam, and just does not make sense.

 

[Shaggy]

So, if Messam os dropped for Vito, the timeline would be something like this:

1.- Messam gets the call ahead of Vito due to his Super Rugby form.
2.- He performs acceptably but not extraordinarilly for the All Blacks.
3.- Vito gets a call-up because McCaw and Read are being rested.
4.- Vito plays 15-odd minutes of unimpressive rugby.
5.- Vito gets chosen ahead of Messam.

I can see no criterion under which Vito deserves the call-up over Messam that was not already true before the 3N squad was named. Don't get me wrong: I'm a big Vito fan and I would have him over Messam any day, but what Graham Henry is doing is both very rude to Messam, and just does not make sense.

Just heard on NZ Radio Sport, that Kaino is home for the birth of his child, maybe Vito is there, just to cover for this match? ... like you, I can't see why Vito justifies a position either

 

[FlukeArtist]

Vito is just back up for back up anyway.
I think the reason Vito is there, is that he (like Thomson) is more versatile loose forward coverage than Messam.

 

[Larksea]

@ Larksea,

Yeah you can say "Messam played better than such and such" But your statement is contentious IMO, as:
1. Mealamu was probably one of the better All Blacks on the park, whilst Messam made 6 or 7 runs for a massive 30m, and his tackle stats were nothing impressive.
2. We know what all those other players that you bagged CAN do at International level. I have never seen Messam play a decent/standout game at International level. Whilst I have seen Vito make some good contributions.
3. The statement you made about Messam ripping it up for Waikato is probably true, but that is because that is just his level really. He has not ever made the step above that. Good provincial player, but not up to International standard (much like Donald)
4. And to answer your question- I'd rather have Thomson. So he gets penalised- so does McCaw. Shows that he is probably playing closer to the breakdowns and turnovers than Messam does. Then there is his ability to cover all loose forward positions if required (though 6 is his best position). Thomson is just a better player than Messam.

1, Mealmu did less work at the breakdown than Messam, touched the ball 5 times for 18 meters (6 for 30 for messam), same number of tackles but Mealamu Missed 3 tackles Messam missed 0 Yes Mealamu is an established All Black but he had a below average game. Messam was better all round. Yes Mealamu is a hooker and Messam an 8 but you would expect Kevin to have a stronger game in at least one area of the stats but he was behind messam in all of them.

2, Messam had a very good game against scotland last year, he had a busy game and setup two trys. If anything Messam was solid and mistake free against the boks. Good contributions from Vito? The last test he played he made a major stuff up which let Aussie score a try...

3, Statements like that are always bulldust, for example how many test caps, and years in and out of the all blacks did it take Kaino to establish himself. People said the same thing about him early in his carrier.

4. you would rather have a guy guy that gave away 4 penalties and won 0 turnovers? For the record Messam Arrived at more breakdowns than Thompson as per the stats no turnovers for himself but he played a big role in at least one counterruck and one maul turnover. he made some good cleanouts and at one stage made a good tackle to sack a rolling maul.

Honestly if it was messam who had given away 4 penalties 2-3 of those kicked for points and one that cost the All Blacks a prime attacking chance infront of the boks posts I would be the first one to agree he should be dropped. But it wasn't messam it was thompson. And Thompson did nothing better than messam did to justify all his penalties, the type of penalties that will lose tight games. Just topping the tackle count isn't enough, kinda expect that from an openside who plays 80min.

I just think it's rough to ask a guy to sit on the sidelines for weeks and then come on as part of a makeshift team to play for his position, he has a good game, not a great one but gets dropped.

 

[donmcdazzle]

I hope Messam hasn't been dropped for Vito. Messam is solid without being a standout for the AB's. Vito I do not rate and he has hardly been playing very well for Wellington.

If it was a toss up between Thomson and Messam I's pick Thomson as well, but between Messam and Vito I'd definitely take Messam. Will be interesting to see who has replaced whom.

 

[Darwin]

yeah looks like Messam is out, look at this pic as he arrives at auckland airport he looks like his heart has been ripped out.

http://liammessam.blogspot.com/2011/08/liam-messam-at-auckland-airport.html

honestly I think it's just stupid. I actually watched the game again last night, no he wasn't brilliant but he did nothing wrong and did a number of good things and far as the forwards as a whole went he had a better game than Mealamu who was very average and missed a number of tackles, Afoa who went back in the scrum and hardly touched the ball, Williams who made a couple silly mistakes and thompson who gave away silly penalties in kicking range and Jerome Kaino hardly outplayed Messam - they had pretty much similar games. If it came to the crunch and someone needed to fill in as a loose forward in a big game would you want Messam who will give 100% and keep his nose clean or thompson who has a history of giving away penalties at the wrong time in the wrong part of the field, the kind of penalties that will lose a close game.. ?

The coaches have over reacted, the reality is that if it was Vito that was selected in the origional squad it would have been messam playing in the ITM cup tearing up the park as Captian of waikato while Vito warmed the bench with little gametime while the All Blacks squad has been together.

I agree that it would be a strange decision to drop Messem, as he had an exceptional Super Rugby season, and Vito hasn't really done anything to show he is a better option. The thing is Messem hasn't really taken his chances for the AB's this year - he's been ok, but he hasn't really added much to the AB's. Would Vito do any better? I don't really know (and I actually suspect not) - I would still prefer a specialist 7!

I didn't think Messem was that good vs the Boks; Kaino was much better in my opinion - his defence was more powerful, and he was far more effective with the ball in hand. Whenever Messem got the ball he seemed to immediately run across field (usually down the blindside) - while it was very effective at Super Rugby it doesn't really seem to work at Test level. Though you could (rightly) argue that Messem had a better game than Thomson (as Thomson gave away 4 penalties), Thomson has been more effective than Messem this year for the AB's, so deserves his spot. I'm still not convinced about Thomson either, but he does have some interesting skills (particularly his aerial skills) that can be very useful at test level, and (fortunately) when he is paired with a genuine openside flanker he doesn't tend to give away near as many silly penalties. I would have actually liked to have seen Messem given a start at 7 vs the Boks (with Vito at 8), as I still think he is a better option at 7 than Thomson....

 

[TRF_Cymro]

ARC is saying that Hosea Gear, Sivivatu and Messam are not there.

How long before they announce the squad?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

3am UK time, I think

 

[TRF_Cymro]

3am UK time, I think

Bed it will be then.

 

[Larksea]

I agree, but if Thompson has been more effective it's because he's been given chances Messam hasn't. I also think messam would be better at 7 than thompson but Messam was never given the chance. Thompson has been involved in every game in the tri nations and given time in every position. Messam has only had 90min total and only at #8. And he was actually pretty good for the 25min he had against the boks in the first test.

have to wait and see, maybe pre mature to assume he's out. It doesn't make sense apart from that photo of him arriving in auckland. His game was a pass mark at the very least.

Also have to consider that if he is cut it's not just about on field performances, maybe there is something else as well. Who knows. If so will be a sorry signt for the chiefs franchise, only two all blacks in the 30man squad, no forwards. And if anyone from the chiefs deserves to be there it's Liam Messam.

Was interesting to watch the last boks game again. That first linebreak by dagg he had Kahui free and clear on the outside who would have scored if he had gone that way and not infield to cowan, should have been a try with just 40sec on the clock. Also saw a chance for messam to score if Slade had passed and not taken the ball to ground. Also as good as dagg's running game was he took the ball into contact and turned over posession 5-6 times in that game. Also Toeava was pretty good, will be interesting to see what the starting wingers will be, so many good options. We may get a preview of the coaches thinking with the team named for this weekends test. This will be seen as a must win game for the all blacks, wallabies too.