All Blacks final World Cup squad?

[CaliRa1]

I had Laulala O Franks B Franks Faumuina & Woodcock on my Squad as my Props
Not that I don't like Crockett I actually think he's our best Loosened
Just there was no other prop of his stature looking like going
For me I think your LH & TH need to be relatively close in height
MacKintosh & Afeaki
Prattley & Tu'ungafasi / Ta'avao
May & Toomaga-Allen
I'm no expert but I feel as though there is a correlation between height of the props and scrummaging efficiency
If Carl Hayman was available & in form I would've had the 2 over Laulala & Faumuina
I guess versatility was the preference for the members not in the Consensus Match Day 23
e.g. Slade Faumuina Messam
I think Laulala is going to improve the Chiefs scrummaging next year
Looking forward to that… Love Tameifuna though

 

[Mcfadden]

Hard to believe Luatua would be selected in a World Cup climate. He has versatility, yes, and that's important. But Messam has experience, better with tight play, more physical and better leadership skills (when he's being sensible and not a thug). In proportion to the games/minutes they've played over the Super campaign, Messam is slightly less accurate but makes more tackles in a game. I'm not Messam fan and I sure hope he isn't our first choice blindside in the knock out games. But there's no way he was losing out to Luatua.

 

[Kiwi_]

I had Laulala O Franks B Franks Faumuina & Woodcock on my Squad as my Props
Not that I don't like Crockett I actually think he's our best Loosened
Just there was no other prop of his stature looking like going
For me I think your LH & TH need to be relatively close in height
MacKintosh & Afeaki
Prattley & Tu'ungafasi / Ta'avao
May & Toomaga-Allen
I'm no expert but I feel as though there is a correlation between height of the props and scrummaging efficiency
If Carl Hayman was available & in form I would've had the 2 over Laulala & Faumuina
I guess versatility was the preference for the members not in the Consensus Match Day 23
e.g. Slade Faumuina Messam
I think Laulala is going to improve the Chiefs scrummaging next year
Looking forward to that… Love Tameifuna though

Tameifuna is pretty slobbish and cynical, I don't want him in the AB's personally.

 

[Larksea]

Luatua would've been selected over Messam
Messam has that mongrel that Luatua doesn't but would've been able to cover Lock which is where they intend to have Kaino cover if I'm correct
Vito can cover all loose forward positions better than Messam and Luatua would've been able to cover lock better than Vito could
Kaino is over 30 now & not that I don't think he won't cover lock good but you want him in the #6 jersey
Luatua on form no but he is a little more versatile than Messam when you've already got Vito
Now I'm a big Messam fan but he hasn't been the form #6 in NZ Super Rugby this year Shields & Dixon were
And the Blues this year were all around poor so I would've taken Luatua for this reason

IMO Brutally realistic about Vito's versatility his best position is #8, he's an option at lock, the last couple of years he's too slow laterally and retreating to be a 6 in important games and any idea of him covering 7 these days is laughable. maybe when he was 22, not anymore. Still good in a straight line but generally he is the least mobile and has the lowest work rate of the 6 loose forwards selected. IMO he's less mobile than whitelock & retalick as well...

I think my ongoing concern over Vito still stands. He always looks good in a strong team performance. But when the pressure is on he vanishes and becomes ineffective. There are games for the hurricanes where he's gone 70-80min with his team under pressure and finished the game with only 2 tackles credited to his name. And this has even been true at ITM cup level. The one exception being the lineout, he's been superb in the lineout, at the front hes both reliable on our own ball and good at disrupting opposition ball. He's easily our best lineout loose forward and a better jumper than a lot of locks we have like Thrush & Romano.

 

[Shaggy]

IMO Brutally realistic about Vito's versatility his best position is #8, he's an option at lock, the last couple of years he's too slow laterally and retreating to be a 6 in important games and any idea of him covering 7 these days is laughable. maybe when he was 22, not anymore. Still good in a straight line but generally he is the least mobile and has the lowest work rate of the 6 loose forwards selected. IMO he's less mobile than whitelock & retalick as well...

I think my ongoing concern over Vito still stands. He always looks good in a strong team performance. But when the pressure is on he vanishes and becomes ineffective. There are games for the hurricanes where he's gone 70-80min with his team under pressure and finished the game with only 2 tackles credited to his name. And this has even been true at ITM cup level. The one exception being the lineout, he's been superb in the lineout, at the front hes both reliable on our own ball and good at disrupting opposition ball. He's easily our best lineout loose forward and a better jumper than a lot of locks we have like Thrush & Romano.

Not sure that I agree with the pressures on he vanishes and becomes ineffective comment; in the game against Scotland last year, Vito was one of a few players who stood up when the pressure was on. He'll clearly get moved around the forward pack a bit in the RWC to give the locks a break, and also give Read a break at some stage. Blindside is pretty well covered anyway, so any appearances there are likely to be as a substitution.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Slade was carried off the field injured this morning: http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...ade-carried-off-the-field-injured-at-training

Watch this space

 

[Kiwiwomble]

ok, say slade goes down (apparently its not bad, just a rolled ankle) do you replace him with sopanga and weaken your outside back depth or with Piutau/dagg and just tell barrett to concentrate on 1st 5?

 

[nickdnz]

IMO Brutally realistic about Vito's versatility his best position is #8, he's an option at lock, the last couple of years he's too slow laterally and retreating to be a 6 in important games and any idea of him covering 7 these days is laughable. maybe when he was 22, not anymore. Still good in a straight line but generally he is the least mobile and has the lowest work rate of the 6 loose forwards selected. IMO he's less mobile than whitelock & retalick as well...

I think my ongoing concern over Vito still stands. He always looks good in a strong team performance. But when the pressure is on he vanishes and becomes ineffective. There are games for the hurricanes where he's gone 70-80min with his team under pressure and finished the game with only 2 tackles credited to his name. And this has even been true at ITM cup level. The one exception being the lineout, he's been superb in the lineout, at the front hes both reliable on our own ball and good at disrupting opposition ball. He's easily our best lineout loose forward and a better jumper than a lot of locks we have like Thrush & Romano.

Vito is hardly not mobile - he's been criticized continually for his lack of a tight game, now the former 7's winger is too slow? Looked pretty quick to me in every game I have seen him in, has upped his tight game considerably. But let's compare him to Messam based on Super Rugby:

Tackles per 80 minutes on field:
Messam: 9.0
Vito: 8.2

Tackle success:
Vito: 92.3%
Messam: 87.1%

Turnovers conceded per 80 minutes:
Messam: 1.88
Vito: 1.20

Carries per 80 mintutes:
Vito: 11.83
Messam: 8.17

Metres per carry per 80 minutes:
Vito: 42.23m
Messam: 30.01

Over 80 minutes Larksea it would seem to me that Vito would be the more mobile of the 2 players. The only areas which Messam has a real lead over Vito, is number of passes (not including offloads) and number of open field kicks. It would seem Vito is constantly more accurate in what he has does over this season. His workrate looks statistically better than Messams. I cannot recall a big game in which he has only made 2 tackles? Either way saying he isn't as mobile as our locks is a bit absurd.

 

[Mcfadden]

If Slade "isn't that bad" which is getting reported then surely he's okay to go? If Naholo is good enough to take without being fully fit until the 3rd game in, then surely Slade is too? I know that Naholo's position of winger has more guys to cover it than what Slade's position does, but still.

 

[Kiwi_]

ok, say slade goes down (apparently its not bad, just a rolled ankle) do you replace him with sopanga and weaken your outside back depth or with Piutau/dagg and just tell barrett to concentrate on 1st 5?

Take Sopoaga. I'm not convinced Barrett is fully fit either. He was limping at the end of our game vs Taranaki and he's being playing like he's still carrying an injury, he hasn't being place kicking, so his stock has diminished dramatically. I'm starting to think Sopoaga is the safe call here. 3 iffy 1st 5 in terms of fitness smells like another 2011 crisis to me.


@Larksea That's just wrong about Vito, I would have agreed he fades in games a few years ago, mainly because of his size and fitness. But he's put in a hell of a lot of work into his conditioning and packed on some real size that he's last through games and being a real stand out, mobility wise he's been superb this year. He also concedes far less penalties than Messam.

 

[Kapa O Pango]

Smith, Skudder, Savea and Naholo.

So many back-three combonations.
You can have:
11.Savea
14.Skudder
15.Smith

11.Savea
14.Naholo
15.Smith

11.Savea
14.Smith
15.Skudder

11.Naholo
14.Skudder
15.Smith

11.Naholo
14.Smith
15.Skudder

Well you can have heaps of combos haha. I'm just concerned about defensive tackling, positioning and under highball ability, esepcially Skudder and Naholo.

 

[Kiwi_]

With Naholo not being fully fit until the 3rd game, Julian will be attempting to recapture his form, it'll be interesting to see how he's done, I hope he's working hard and realized you can't just win rugby by running over people.

 

[Larksea]

Vito is hardly not mobile - he's been criticized continually for his lack of a tight game, now the former 7's winger is too slow? Looked pretty quick to me in every game I have seen him in, has upped his tight game considerably. But let's compare him to Messam based on Super Rugby:

Tackles per 80 minutes on field:
Messam: 9.0
Vito: 8.2

Tackle success:
Vito: 92.3%
Messam: 87.1%

Turnovers conceded per 80 minutes:
Messam: 1.88
Vito: 1.20

Carries per 80 mintutes:
Vito: 11.83
Messam: 8.17

Metres per carry per 80 minutes:
Vito: 42.23m
Messam: 30.01

Over 80 minutes Larksea it would seem to me that Vito would be the more mobile of the 2 players. The only areas which Messam has a real lead over Vito, is number of passes (not including offloads) and number of open field kicks. It would seem Vito is constantly more accurate in what he has does over this season. His workrate looks statistically better than Messams. I cannot recall a big game in which he has only made 2 tackles? Either way saying he isn't as mobile as our locks is a bit absurd.

and those stats pretty much have absolutely nothing to do with my argument. And I never said he's slow.

comparatively speaking
hes great in a straight line or running up the touch line on attack
he's Great defending close to the rucks when opposition players run straight at him
he's great with front foot ball
in dominant team performances he can clock up massive stats
he's poor at changing direction
he's poor moving laterally
he's poor tracking back on defense
he's poor with static ball or back foot ball.
in tighter games or when his pack is going backwards his stats bottom out.


tracking back on defense an area where Messam & Kaino are very strong, Messam in particular is very light on his feet for his size when there is a line break and his team go backwards he's almost always the first man on the scene and I doubt any stats would reflect that. Looking more for breakdown attendance, time in defensive line, proximity to the ball and distance covered stats. For the chiefs Messam also has an extra role as kindof a playmaker which is probably reflected by the passing stat you mentioned. Also consider total time on the park? Messam has probably clocked up more super rugby game time over the last 4-5 years than anyone else in the competition, at a guess I'd say Vito would be well down in that area, he's had injury issues and he's shared the role with other Hurricanes Loosies like Shields.

 

[nickdnz]

and those stats pretty much have absolutely nothing to do with my argument. And I never said he's slow.

comparatively speaking
hes great in a straight line or running up the touch line on attack
he's Great defending close to the rucks when opposition players run straight at him
he's great with front foot ball
in dominant team performances he can clock up massive stats
he's poor at changing direction
he's poor moving laterally
he's poor tracking back on defense
he's poor with static ball or back foot ball.
in tighter games or when his pack is going backwards his stats bottom out.


tracking back on defense an area where Messam & Kaino are very strong, Messam in particular is very light on his feet for his size when there is a line break and his team go backwards he's almost always the first man on the scene and I doubt any stats would reflect that. Looking more for breakdown attendance, time in defensive line, proximity to the ball and distance covered stats. For the chiefs Messam also has an extra role as kindof a playmaker which is probably reflected by the passing stat you mentioned. Also consider total time on the park? Messam has probably clocked up more super rugby game time over the last 4-5 years than anyone else in the competition, at a guess I'd say Vito would be well down in that area, he's had injury issues and he's shared the role with other Hurricanes Loosies like Shields.

I disagree with all of that. Unfortunately no one could provide stats on those things - and since you are not supporting those statements with evidence - I suppose we are just going to have differences of opinion on this one.

 

[Kiwi_]

I disagree with all of that. Unfortunately no one could provide stats on those things - and since you are not supporting those statements with evidence - I suppose we are just going to have differences of opinion on this one.

Stats in some areas are good, but you seem to run completely off them. Watching the game sometimes is the best stat. There's so many things that don't get recorded in a game that a player does.

 

[cw0401]

It's been said that to win a RWC you need at least 5 players in your team who would make a world 15. Interested to know what people think. Does our squad meet that criteria?

 

[CaliRa1]

It's been said that to win a RWC you need at least 5 players in your team who would make a world 15. Interested to know what people think. Does our squad meet that criteria?

Aaron Smith
Ben Smith
Julian Savea
Dan Carter
Kieran Read
Jerome Kaino
Richie McCaw
Brodie Retallick
Dane Coles
Owen Franks
Ma'a Nonu
Conrad Smith

On their day

 

[CaliRa1]

My World XV looks like this (My 2nd XV)
15 Israel Folau (Ben Smith)
14 Bryan Habana (Waisake Naholo)
13 Conrad Smith (Manu Tuilagi)
12 Ma'a Nonu (Matt Giteau)
11 Julian Savea (George North)
10 Jonny Sexton (Dan Carter)
9 Aaron Smith (Conor Murray)
8 Kieran Read (Duane Vermeulen)
7 Richie McCaw (David Pocock/Michael Hooper)
6 Sergio Parisse (Jerome Kaino)
5 Eben Etzebeth (Samuel Whitelock)
4 Brodie Retallick (Courtney Lawes)
3 Owen Franks (Dan Cole/David Wilson)
2 Dane Coles (Bismarck du Plessis)
1 Cian Healy (Tendai Mtawarira)

 

[nickdnz]

Stats in some areas are good, but you seem to run completely off them. Watching the game sometimes is the best stat. There's so many things that don't get recorded in a game that a player does.

No, what I do is use statistics to back my perception of what happens. It's called supporting my beliefs with empirical evidence. Of course it isn't perfect - but when two people have two different views on a player it helps to support your view with something outside "my point of view is obviously right". In this context I have clearly used several things that would indicate an effective work rate - it's difficult to dispute that if player A is credited with more runs per game than player B - then player A runs more than player B.

I don't stare at a screen of rugby stats and form my opinions based on that - I use what I believe seems to be the case, and see if my beliefs are supported by the numbers. Of course it would be considerably easier for me to just say "no you're wrong" and not try and back it up, or back it up with isolated instances that I happen to recall - but it wouldn't do much to demonstrate my point.

 

[Kiwi_]

Yeah I understand all that and in theory it works well but when put to practice it does not always work well. SBW would be a good example with a really high tackle rate, but he doesn't bring much else to the table. Stats can obscure an impact a player has on the game, they might not have as many line breaks for example, but they might make a game breaking decision that resulted in a try in another area that another stronger line breaker would not have made. Conrad Smith is a good example here.

When you put the stats up between Kirindrani and Conrad Smith, Kirindrani looks the far superior centre and player, but we all know that's not the case.