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All Blacks 2021-2024 Thread

Was definitely surprised at handling errors on Saturday.
basic skills have been dropping for a couple of years, i remember talking to another fan last year and pointing out real basics like missed tackles or dropped balls and the answer was they wont have time to work on those basics in camp, that those skills are on their super and NPC coaches....personally i thought that was a weak excuse, if we see thats something we need to work on then we should....its not like theeyre spending there time working on complicated gameplans....


i thin the most disappointing thing is the arrogance, we're stuffing up the basics...but still trying to play like world beaters
 
basic skills have been dropping for a couple of years, i remember talking to another fan last year and pointing out real basics like missed tackles or dropped balls and the answer was they wont have time to work on those basics in camp, that those skills are on their super and NPC coaches....personally i thought that was a weak excuse, if we see thats something we need to work on then we should....its not like theeyre spending there time working on complicated gameplans....


i thin the most disappointing thing is the arrogance, we're stuffing up the basics...but still trying to play like world beaters
Definitely foster and co think our strength is our skills and that we should play to our strengths. I watch quite a bit of rugby from outside NZ and I don't think it's true anymore that our skills are particularly better, especially at international level.

It wasn't our skills that let us down, it was the assumption that our skills were higher than they actually are. Sounds like a coach blaming the players for his game plan.

And now the selections are ignoring what we really need to beat the Irish - big dudes who can get go forward ball; in the space of a week we've dropped tupaea, faingaanuku, taukeiaho, sowakula, and replaced them with havili, rts, coles, akira.

Now let's hope I'm wrong and that we can beat the Irish using our superior ball skills.
 
Definitely foster and co think our strength is our skills and that we should play to our strengths. I watch quite a bit of rugby from outside NZ and I don't think it's true anymore that our skills are particularly better, especially at international level.

It wasn't our skills that let us down, it was the assumption that our skills were higher than they actually are. Sounds like a coach blaming the players for his game plan.

And now the selections are ignoring what we really need to beat the Irish - big dudes who can get go forward ball; in the space of a week we've dropped tupaea, faingaanuku, taukeiaho, sowakula, and replaced them with havili, rts, coles, akira.

Now let's hope I'm wrong and that we can beat the Irish using our superior ball skills.
yes, its pretty clear our gameplan is "individual moments of brilliance"....or in other world, suck up as much pressure as possible, even if it means retreating well into our own half and try and force and error then let one of our world beater just do something amazing on the counter

what they seem to be obvious too is...we're not conceding ground...theyre taking it, we dont have the skill to stop them anymore, so where as previous AB's would concede to a point and then stop and fight back...these guys concede right over our own goal line. They also miss that the opposition has been wise to this for years, the rush defence kills a lot of space that we previously use to use to strike on the counter...so were often turning it straight back over
 
Is the feeling in NZ that Foster has to go after this and last November?
 
Is the feeling in NZ that Foster has to go after this and last November?
My prediction for the series was: I don't see why Ireland shouldn't be looking to 3-0 NZ. So really, this hasn't come as a huge surprise to me.

But the answer is: Yes. He inherited a team that was starting to lose, and he has continued to lose... You can't tell me that we are still relying on a "little bit of Beaudy magic" to win games... That ship has sailed so long ago. Honestly, look at what the Crusaders did to the Blues... The Blues were completely outcoached, Barrett was shutdown as badly as he is on international duty. Foster has not found a solution to a problem that dates back to what, 2017? When the ABs started to struggle versus the teams with rush defense. We have not found a solution yet... Compare the tries that were scored tonight. Ireland: Structured running lines and interplay ball from 1 to 15, New Zealand: Some counterattacking which involved some special individual talent. Which can you rely on in big games?

Remember like 6 years ago when everyone was a little bit scared of what Beauden Barrett could produce? That is gone. He barely runs the ball into contact, he throws flat hospital passes to people who have no momentum going forward, and because this system that Foster has on the pitch just has people standing flat with no depth or line speed, the All Blacks are the most predictable team in the top5 currently. Even Australia, who I think NZ is going to have a hard time against holding onto the Bledisloe... Run better lines, have better structure, have more clarity with their team identity, and it really does seem like Foster doesn't have a clue. Australia are developing their talent by using them efficiently where they are best, and we're out there putting Scott Barrett, a top international level Lock on any team... Foster is starting him at 6... The ABs are just so lost.

Mr. Foster... Who is your starting centre pairing for the World Cup? Conrad Smith and Ma'a Nonu have been gone almost 7 years, surely you have some idea, right? Is it:

Goodhue/Ioane?
Goodhue/Ennor?
Goodhue/ALB?
ALB/Ioane?
ALB/Ennor?
Roger Tuivasa-Sheck/Ioane?
Havili/Ioane?
Tupaea/Ioane?
J. Barrett/Ioane? * My personal preferred choice.

I literally have zero idea which pair is our best pair, I assume it would be my preferred choice, I'll say why later.

I really think that Sam Cane as the captain has run its course now. You can't tell me that guy is inspiring anyone. They've had McCaw... Then Kieran Read, then...... Sam Cane. Come on. My opinion? Ardie Savea. I have seen that guy produce some outrageous feats in a yellow/black jersey, as well as a black jersey. That man has literally ZERO quit in him. And I would give him his #7 jersey back too. I think Sam Cane had 1 turnover in 3 games, it is time to move on, there was a better turnover specialist at the Chiefs and he didn't even get a phone call(Lachlan Boshier). We could literally have Akira/Savea/Sotutu or Sowakula, these guys are STUPIDLY talented. You have those 4 players in one international team? That is ridiculous.

The good news is, we found some good looking props that definitely held their own at international level. Oh, and the new blood halfback has a SICK rocket of a pass. But that is as far as our good news goes, unfortunately.

Going forward I think people need to start realising is that as far as our #10 options go. It is either one of the following - Barrett has been found out, and isn't as effective as he used to be, or, the system he is being implemented in is failing him. Depending on how you personally view Barrett as a player these days. I think it is a bit of both, tbh. I think Mo'unga has been the better #10 for the last 3 years at least, however, the system currently for Mo'unga is definitely not for him, he works within a much better structure and set-up at the Crusaders, and it is much more organised than the All Blacks. Are they both fixed by a new coach? Yeah, potentially, but I really think Beauden is coming to a point of which he'd be more effective as a super-sub vs tired legs. Would he stay for that role within NZRU? Doubt it. Honestly, I think that Foster made a mistake with making Jordie Barrett start playing Fullback in Super Rugby. I think it was stupid, and I think it would have been a perfect counter for the style of rugby that is being played today. Jordie Barrett used to play 12 at high school, and because NZRU felt like there was a crowd in the centres they suggested he changed his position...
Jordie Barrett: 'I think 12 is the most comfortable position for me' - April 2022
So you'd have Mo'unga, Jordie Barrett, and either Beauden/Will Jordan/Damian McKenzie... Why can't we go back to the old tradition of the second-five having the same skills as the first-five...? Are teams going to hesitate rushing up on a line-up with 3 of these players in it? I'd say so... Is there a huge potential in Jordie slamming 50/22 kicks out of second-five? Yeah I think there really is... I think having Jordie at second-five completely unlocks a player like Rieko Ioane, because then you get this tandem of danger where these two can play off each other. Because Jordie WILL make the pass, whether its behind the back to Ioane into space, or a 20m floater to cut out two defenders, the kid has vision. At least Ma'a was a dangerous runner, and developed the potential of him kicking the ball through from time-to-time. The All Blacks don't have that potential in their set-up right now. Havili/Tupaea/RTS/ALB they are only either going to run, or pass... That is it. We don't even see the centres bursting through the line on some obscure angle and flashing through the defense, because those plays are not there anymore, that potential is currently not there. And that lies with the coaching staff, not with the talent. I think Sevu Reece is easily one of our most talented wingers, but with a flawed system, he won't see the ball. Remember when a lot of people thought Ioane was a nightmare on the wing, only for us to see this "underperform" period primarily because he never saw the ball... Because that totally happened. When Ioane finally got the ball, it was either from open play, or a **** stand still hospital ball from Beauden straight into two defenders. Underutilized. But that's what the Hansen/Foster reign has brought to New Zealand rugby, as well as not playing in-form/in position rugby.

As far as who I'd like to see replace Foster? It would be between Schmidt and Robertson. I really have no gripes with either tbh, and even gun to head I would hesitate with an answer... I think the greatest natural progression for Robertson would to be the Assistant Coach to someone like Schmidt, even if it were just to be for 3 years... But that is only because of what Schmidt did with Ireland rugby. Pretty sure Robertson has gone on record and stated he wouldn't take an assistant role, I mean, the guy has won Super Rugby like 6 times in a row... He can clearly coach(See last Finals game vs Blues), he is clearly a good motivator, very obviously has a good eye for talent(see all the new Crusaders who are All Blacks in the last 5 years). I think I kinda expect Schmidt to be instantly successful with his coaching, but I expect that from Robertson but with a little bit more flare. Idk.

All I know is - There has to be a big change with the All Blacks, or they are going out in the quarter-finals next year. And for once, there is probably no rugby fan in New Zealand that thinks otherwise.
 
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It's interesting to look at Fosters coaching career. He was at the helm of the Chiefs from 2005 to 2011. Apart from a runners up spot in 2009, it was a whole lot of ordinary. In 2010 and 2011 he finished 10th and 11th and was let go and hadn't been a head coach of a senior side since. The following 2 years the Chiefs were champions. So we see immediate and dramatic improvement as soon as Foster was shown the door.

Utterly incredible he ever got the top job and laughable he is being allowed to continue to drive the ABs into the dirt. He will not be turning this ship around.
 
It's interesting to look at Fosters coaching career. He was at the helm of the Chiefs from 2005 to 2011. Apart from a runners up spot in 2009, it was a whole lot of ordinary. In 2010 and 2011 he finished 10th and 11th and was let go and hadn't been a head coach of a senior side since. The following 2 years the Chiefs were champions. So we see immediate and dramatic improvement as soon as Foster was shown the door.

Utterly incredible he ever got the top job and laughable he is being allowed to continue to drive the ABs into the dirt. He will not be turning this ship around.
Hilariously enough... It was Dave Rennie that turned the Chiefs around.
 
Can't do much about player pool. By law of averages NZ were overdue a sub stellar bunch.

But the coaching team clearly isn't getting the best out of the available players. Something can be done about that. Will they be brave enough?
 
Can't do much about player pool. By law of averages NZ were overdue a sub stellar bunch.

But the coaching team clearly isn't getting the best out of the available players. Something can be done about that. Will they be brave enough?
the Crusaders prove that is avoidable when it comes to sport, 3 decades of dominance, legacies should be self fulfilling, the best players and coaches should always turn up for the a champion team....i really feel if that legacy fades then someone ****** up
 
Can't do much about player pool. By law of averages NZ were overdue a sub stellar bunch.

But the coaching team clearly isn't getting the best out of the available players. Something can be done about that. Will they be brave enough?
Huh??? Player pool??

Retallick/Barrett
Whitelock/Tuipolotu
Akira/Fritzell
Savea/Cane/Papali'i
Sotutu/Sowakula
Smith/TJ/Fakatava
Mo'unga/Barrett/Josh Ioane/McKenzie
Reece/(writing this on smoko at work can update later)
A centres pool of: Jordie, Goodhue, Ennor, ALB, Ioane, Tupaea, RTS, Havili......
Another winger
Will Jordan/B. Barrett/J. Barrett/McKenzie/Perofeta

???????????????????? Huh????? "Sub stellar"...??? You're trolling, right? You've caught me. We almost have 3 players at each position that would start on any team in the world... And the ones they wouldn't get infront of they'd be the best in the world at their position..
 
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Huh??? Player pool??

Retallick/Barrett
Whitelock/Tuipolotu
Akira/Fritzell
Savea/Cane/Papali'i
Sotutu/Sowakula
Smith/TJ/Fakatava
Mo'unga/Barrett/Josh Ioane/McKenzie
Reece/(writing this on smoko at work can update later)
A centres pool of: Jordie, Goodhue, Ennor, ALB, Ioane, Tupaea, RTS, Havili......
Another winger
Will Jordan/B. Barrett/J. Barrett/McKenzie/Perofeta

???????????????????? Huh????? "Sub stellar"...??? You're trolling, right? You've caught me. We almost have 3 players at each position that would start on any team in the world... And the ones they wouldn't get infront of they'd be the best in the world at their position..
there is a chance we've been reading out own press, maybe a lot of those just aren't as good as we think or are getting past it

Frizell has continuously failed to dominate at international level, akira can be hit and miss although i still hope that is slowly improving

Retallick and whitelock seem to both be slowing very quickly....have they got another 18months in them or are they just stopping someone new and hungry coming through,

savea is a 7 wearing an 8 jersey and if we keep playing him there it will keep disrupting other selections and cane is just so injury prone

richie and BB have awesome ratings but both seem to struggle if they cant play their natural games, too similar to each other?

goodhue and ALB are too injury prone, goodhue has only managed 17 tests since 2017!

lots of those guys are rated highly but lots seem to have styles that dont mesh with each other...they dont seem to be able to read what each other is going to do
 
there is a chance we've been reading out own press, maybe a lot of those just aren't as good as we think or are getting past it

Frizell has continuously failed to dominate at international level, akira can be hit and miss although i still hope that is slowly improving

Retallick and whitelock seem to both be slowing very quickly....have they got another 18months in them or are they just stopping someone new and hungry coming through,

savea is a 7 wearing an 8 jersey and if we keep playing him there it will keep disrupting other selections and cane is just so injury prone

richie and BB have awesome ratings but both seem to struggle if they cant play their natural games, too similar to each other?

goodhue and ALB are too injury prone, goodhue has only managed 17 tests since 2017!

lots of those guys are rated highly but lots seem to have styles that dont mesh with each other...they dont seem to be able to read what each other is going to do
Yeah, most of that is fairly accurate. But we're absolutely not short on talent here. The All Blacks are short on identity, direction, and a Plan B, C, D, E. Oh ****... We can't just win games on some ridiculous piece of individual talent, and then rely on that happening 3 or 4 times a game. So... I guess we'll just kick the ball to them and hope they drop it...?
 
Outsiders will compare the team to ABs past and for many that will be the McCaw era. One of the great teams of all time admittedly, but you don't seem to have many players with the presence, intimidation factor or nous that so many of that team had.

That's not to say there's not a huge amount of talent - that's a given. As are moments of individual brilliance that England can only dream of. And no doubt sorting out the coaching will help a lot.

Can you win the next RWC? Yep. But unless things change you'll just be one of a few teams that might.

What @Kiwiwomble says about Whitelock, Retallick and Savea in particular resonates. From an outsider's perspective the ABs are a team to be respected but not feared at the moment.
 
Yeah I really don't think the NZ talent is other worldly like it has been for most of the time I have watched rugby in my life. Over that series Savea, Smith and Jordan were the only real standouts as players better than we have available. In reverse Sheehan, Furlong, Beirne, Henshaw and Keenan* all looked better than anyone NZ have. Add in that POM, VdF and Sexton looked far more able to influence test matches in their favour than their opposite numbers currently are.

NZ are a top 4 squad right now and are definitely capable of beating anyone on their day (a suffix that they haven't needed in decades) but their current talent level has then in a position where good coaching, good form and a bit of luck is needed to be the top team in the world, the same as South Africa, France and now Ireland have had in the past three years. They also need a fix in their tight five, particularly props from my viewing.

*Willing to accept I may be missing something with J Barrett but I've never massively rated him. Keenan was definitely the 15 of this series anyway.
 
Can't do much about player pool. By law of averages NZ were overdue a sub stellar bunch.

But the coaching team clearly isn't getting the best out of the available players. Something can be done about that. Will they be brave enough?
IMO there's a lot of overthinking about NZ's slide in the rugby world in general and this post sums up the reality that's a bit too boring to get column inches out of.

The tight five is the big weakness for me, world-class players who have gone or declined have not been replaced with anyone of similar quality and now aren't providing the platform that they used to for those behind them (who are maybe not all-timey, but still very good) to do what they have for most of the rest of the professional era. Most of the tight five have been in the conversation for best of all time for so long that we've become used to it, but this simply can't last. Nowhere is this more evident than in the second row, where the gene pool simply can't keep providing players like Retalick and Whitelock as their performances decline.

As you say, having a coach who for most of his career has been used to forwards getting their share of the ball, and giving it to the backs to do something the opposition can't stop can't be helping. With this platform taken away, he needs to play to the strengths of the players he has in the same way as Farrell has with Ireland, but there's no evidence of this happening.
 
I found the first five minutes of the 3rd Test quite telling. (Sam Cane spoke about this period in his post match interview). This is where both teams come out fired up, with the Coaches/Captains words ringing in their ears. Fatigue is not a factor, with player's fresh, clear minded and defensive/attacking patterns at the front of their minds. Two good teams and it really should be a stalemate.
Not in this Test. Ireland unpicked the AB's and scored a lovely try. To me, that indicates the blueprint is not right as the AB's are leaving the sheds.
 
I found the first five minutes of the 3rd Test quite telling. (Sam Cane spoke about this period in his post match interview). This is where both teams come out fired up, with the Coaches/Captains words ringing in their ears. Fatigue is not a factor, with player's fresh, clear minded and defensive/attacking patterns at the front of their minds. Two good teams and it really should be a stalemate.
Not in this Test. Ireland unpicked the AB's and scored a lovely try. To me, that indicates the blueprint is not right as the AB's are leaving the sheds.
this x100......completely unresearched stat here but i have bad feeling we have conceded first and early in more games than not over the last couple of years

Yeah, most of that is fairly accurate. But we're absolutely not short on talent here. The All Blacks are short on identity, direction, and a Plan B, C, D, E. Oh ****... We can't just win games on some ridiculous piece of individual talent, and then rely on that happening 3 or 4 times a game. So... I guess we'll just kick the ball to them and hope they drop it...?

yeah, those individual moment of brilliance were what use to turn a win into a thrashing...on the back of other gameplans...and now we've been blinded by the flash and its the only thing we have...which is not enough
 

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