ABs No.6 Steve Luatua - For the future?

[Kapa O Pango]

Steven Luatua's outstanding performance with an impressive run-on debut as the All Blacks marked the start of Ewen Mckenzie's coaching regime with the Wallabies by inflicting a 47-29 thrashing.

Luatua used his athleticism to get about and stayed close to the ball. He was able to make hard carries, win lineout ball and defend with his customary accuracy. It was a performance that confirmed the potential he's shown all season and one that will have made the injured Messam a little wary.

So Luatua is ABs future no.6? As he is only 22, he has the potential and with more game time he will develop his overall game. Also with guys like Richie and Kirean Read, I'll reckon he'll be in good hands with those guys guiding him.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

He is an out-and-out blindside unlike Messam. I think of him in the same lines of someone like Kaino or Juan Smith; the type of guy you want in a tight game. With him and Read the AB's are set at 6 and 8 and between McCaw, Cane and Shields the open side is covered. IMO Messam and Vito will/should struggle to get a look in unless there is a raft of injuries in the back row despite them being quality players.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

He is an out-and-out blindside unlike Messam. I think of him in the same lines of someone like Kaino or Juan Smith; the type of guy you want in a tight game. With him and Read the AB's are set at 6 and 8 and between McCaw, Cane and Shields the open side is covered. IMO Messam and Vito will/should struggle to get a look in unless there is a raft of injuries in the back row despite them being quality players.

Shields is actually a blindside flanker, but otherwise I agree with you.

Most kiwi posters on the forum have picked Shields and Luatua to be the blindside flankers for NZ come the next World Cup. In 2015 we will likely see Luatua, Cane, Read and two of Shields, McCaw, Vito/Messam. It really depends on whether or not Luatua takes his chances, Shields gets an opportunity (and takes his chances), and how long McCaw lasts. Outside chances are Matt Todd, Luke Braid and Luke Whitelock.

 

[William18]

He is an out-and-out blindside unlike Messam. I think of him in the same lines of someone like Kaino or Juan Smith; the type of guy you want in a tight game. With him and Read the AB's are set at 6 and 8 and between McCaw, Cane and Shields the open side is covered. IMO Messam and Vito will/should struggle to get a look in unless there is a raft of injuries in the back row despite them being quality players.

Yeah, this. Messam and Vito are good but we need a player of Luatua's style in the side.

 

[nickdnz]

I agree. Luatua does something that no other New Zealand blindside does as well, which is every carry he make the advantage line and gains momentum. It doesn't have to be much, but it needs to be enough. Messam is good on defense, particularly in terms of the number of work rate, but as a ball carrier I really don't rate him, especially in a tight game. The problem I have is whenever Victor Vito is mentioned its always something discouraging - but people ignore the fact that he isn't a blindside flanker, he's a #8. His last game for Wellington you see there is no looseforward who has the skills, pace and power combined as Vito has but he doesn't have that tight game. He'll unfortunately not get oppertunities at 8 because Kieran Read is the best 8 in the world.

I like Luatua. It will be very, very interesting if Kaino returns next season...

 

[Larksea]

I like Luatua he is very athletic and tall which helps in the lineouts and he's got a great work rate.

But I still think he needs to become more powerful/physical, he's not particularly fast, he kinda runs flat footed and his heavy on his feet.

I really like the look of shields, can be a powerful upright runner. he just needs to work on his accuracy in defense it was worrying to see him on the missed tackle list for super rugby

I also think Luke Whitelock is coming along well also. Playing with a lot of energy and accuracy and has a great offload.

Vito is a non factor right now. as I said in another post he needs to start playing like a bully and get angry when his team need a lift. He just goes missing. I still think he is more of an 8 anyway.

For now the jersey Should still belong to Messam. He brings accuracy on defense, is really light on his feet and can cover a huge amount of ground when needed and the ability to constantly stop runners on the advantage line and he can run the ball either as a straight runner or a link player. He also brings just enough ****le and is really good at getting in the oppositions way and always seems to get away with it.

 

[ABs2011]

The problem I have is whenever Victor Vito is mentioned its always something discouraging - but people ignore the fact that he isn't a blindside flanker, he's a #8. His last game for Wellington you see there is no loose forward who has the skills, pace and power combined as Vito has but he doesn't have that tight game. He'll unfortunately not get opportunities at 8 because Kieran Read is the best 8 in the world.

Spot on with the first part. Vito is a number 8 for sure and unfortunately playing him in the ABs at 6 hasn't done him justice. In saying that he hasnt taken his chances, which Luatua surely did. I actually think the rise of Luatua might be a good thing for Vito though. It means now that he may be seen as primarily an 8 cover for Read. If Vito can work his way back into the AB mix as an 8 then I think he could really make a go of it as he will get chances at 8 when the ABs want to rest Read. Vito needs to recognise that post 2015 WC Read will be first of the cab to get the next AB sabbatical and Vito will have his big chance then!!

Re Luatua, the guy is a machine. He is in my opinion one of the biggest rising talents in NZ rugby. So happy for him that his run on debut was so impressive! The thing I like about him (and why I love Kaino too) is he always takes care of his core jobs, and rarely makes any mistakes. I still don't think you can say that about Messam (although his Super Rugby form was superb) and certainly Shields is not there yet. That is why Luatua will cement himself at 6 for the ABs for 10 years to come, he is already the full package, at 22 no less, and with huge potential for more improvement. No doubt about it, he will lock in the 6 by the end of the year!

EDIT: Sorry if someone else has already mentioned it, but Luatua is also considered genuine locking cover as well which adds to his stock!

 

[jessta]

regardless whether messam is fit or not for the next test luatua should be rewarded for his epic performance. The man was immense and hes just going to get better and better

 

[Larksea]

bit harsh on a guy who is the established player and just named man of the match for the super15 final.

Great showing from Luatua but the reality is he had a solid showing in a generally dominant team performance, kind of a dream game clock up a first significant test in. There will be much much tougher challenges ahead. We've seen in the past that as this competition goes on the games get tighter and faster and more and more physical.

I doubt the boks will make it so easy for him.

 

[ABs2011]

bit harsh on a guy who is the established player and just named man of the match for the super15 final.

Great showing from Luatua but the reality is he had a solid showing in a generally dominant team performance, kind of a dream game clock up a first significant test in. There will be much much tougher challenges ahead. We've seen in the past that as this competition goes on the games get tighter and faster and more and more physical.

I doubt the boks will make it so easy for him.

I think the reality is that they will rotate these two from now on. What many are anticipating is that Luatua will surpass Messam sooner rather than later now. I mean I think most rugby enthusiasts had forseen the rise of Luatua for a while now, but his impressive run on performance from the weekend was something that many weren't expecting to see until the end of year tour at the earliest.

I agree, it will only get tougher for Luatua from now. The SAs will of course be a huge chalenge for him and I really look forward to seeing him in action there. I do feel for Messam a bit. He is in the form of his career and arguably was one of the players of the entire Super Rugby tournament, not just the final. I would have no problem at all if he continued as the #1 starting option for the ABs as he has undoubtedly earned it. Unfortunately I think it is inevitable he will pass up the spot to Luatua in the coming years.

Then there is the return of Kaino to throw into the mix!

 

[Larksea]

Luatua does deserve credit because he went out there and did the job but I kinda feel like Luke Whitelock or Brad Shields could have done exactly the same given the chance. It was just one of those games that make you look good. and Messam would be gutted because he missed a chance to further establish himself.

Reminds me a lot of a game against Aussie a few years ago that Adam Thomson was really impressive in. That one game seemed to buy Thomson a selection ticket for about two years in which he never really matched the same level and if anything ended up being a major contributor to a couple of big losses.

A Kaino return would be pretty cool, but I honestly dont think he can come back the same as he was. 2011 was his wall and in his own worlds he went to Japan because his body was in very very bad shape after a huge 2011 workload. This is basically the same thing that happened to Jerry Collins and Rodney So'oialo after massive workloads in 2007-2008. Seeing Kaino in an interview a few months ago he just doesn't look the same man. And he's playing differently now it sounds like he was basically a full time ball carrier in Japan.

Messam will surely make 2015 and we have tons of young talent coming through which is important because when it comes to test footy - like Messam, Kaino and others before them guys in this similar position for test rugby at least seem to peak later when they are very experienced. 26 onwards.

 

[nickdnz]

Luatua does deserve credit because he went out there and did the job but I kinda feel like Luke Whitelock or Brad Shields could have done exactly the same given the chance. It was just one of those games that make you look good. and Messam would be gutted because he missed a chance to further establish himself.

Reminds me a lot of a game against Aussie a few years ago that Adam Thomson was really impressive in. That one game seemed to buy Thomson a selection ticket for about two years in which he never really matched the same level and if anything ended up being a major contributor to a couple of big losses.

A Kaino return would be pretty cool, but I honestly dont think he can come back the same as he was. 2011 was his wall and in his own worlds he went to Japan because his body was in very very bad shape after a huge 2011 workload. This is basically the same thing that happened to Jerry Collins and Rodney So'oialo after massive workloads in 2007-2008. Seeing Kaino in an interview a few months ago he just doesn't look the same man. And he's playing differently now it sounds like he was basically a full time ball carrier in Japan.

Messam will surely make 2015 and we have tons of young talent coming through which is important because when it comes to test footy - like Messam, Kaino and others before them guys in this similar position for test rugby at least seem to peak later when they are very experienced. 26 onwards.

To be fair, I think its now safe to say that trips to Japan can be exactly what is needed to rest the body. Guys like Rudi Wulf, Tamati Ellison, Tim Bateman, George Smith and Fourie du Preez don't seem to have lost much upon returning from Japan. We could see Kaino give another two years of great quality after two years of rest. He'll still only be 32.

 

[ABs2011]

Messam will surely make 2015

Along with Cane and Kerr-Barlow Messam has just signed on for 2 years until post 2015 RWC!! Good news!!

 

[jessta]

Luatua does deserve credit because he went out there and did the job but I kinda feel like Luke Whitelock or Brad Shields could have done exactly the same given the chance. It was just one of those games that make you look good. and Messam would be gutted because he missed a chance to further establish himself.

Reminds me a lot of a game against Aussie a few years ago that Adam Thomson was really impressive in. That one game seemed to buy Thomson a selection ticket for about two years in which he never really matched the same level and if anything ended up being a major contributor to a couple of big losses.

A Kaino return would be pretty cool, but I honestly dont think he can come back the same as he was. 2011 was his wall and in his own worlds he went to Japan because his body was in very very bad shape after a huge 2011 workload. This is basically the same thing that happened to Jerry Collins and Rodney So'oialo after massive workloads in 2007-2008. Seeing Kaino in an interview a few months ago he just doesn't look the same man. And he's playing differently now it sounds like he was basically a full time ball carrier in Japan.

Messam will surely make 2015 and we have tons of young talent coming through which is important because when it comes to test footy - like Messam, Kaino and others before them guys in this similar position for test rugby at least seem to peak later when they are very experienced. 26 onwards.

luke whitelock and brad shields were very good this season, but Luatua is definitely the better out of the three, providing consistently excellent performances starting for the blues! Truley sad for messam who was stuck behind kaino and thomson for so long, then didnt make the world cup squad being ranked behind victor vito. Then when hes finally infront of vito and ready to establish himself as the all black 6, he has luatua and shields right on his heels, not to mention kaino coming back. You get the feeling maybe hes just not meant to establish himself with the all blacks! From what i gathered, i think the blues are looking at playing kaino at 8, maybe a sign that kaino himself realizes he wont make the world cup at 6 with all the fresh talent and is happy to make the squad backup to read.

 

[William18]

To be fair, I think its now safe to say that trips to Japan can be exactly what is needed to rest the body. Guys like Rudi Wulf, Tamati Ellison, Tim Bateman, George Smith and Fourie du Preez don't seem to have lost much upon returning from Japan. We could see Kaino give another two years of great quality after two years of rest. He'll still only be 32.

George Smith is the only one of those players who has come back and been a success for me. Bateman for instance was probably the worst Hurricanes player this season. I don't see the need for Kaino to come back into the side when we have plenty of options at 6.

Luke Whitelock though is nowhere near All Blacks level and not even close to Luatua's standard.

 

[nickdnz]

George Smith is the only one of those players who has come back and been a success for me. Bateman for instance was probably the worst Hurricanes player this season. I don't see the need for Kaino to come back into the side when we have plenty of options at 6.

Luke Whitelock though is nowhere near All Blacks level and not even close to Luatua's standard.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree. Tim Bateman was certainly one of the best 12's in the competition in 2012 (as in when he returned from Japan), Tamati Ellison was arguably the Highlanders best player and remade the All Blacks, Rudi Wulf was reselected for the All Blacks even though I wasn't a massive fan of his before he left, and Fourie du Preez looked very good in his last game for the Boks.

 

[ABs2011]

George Smith is the only one of those players who has come back and been a success for me. Bateman for instance was probably the worst Hurricanes player this season. I don't see the need for Kaino to come back into the side when we have plenty of options at 6.

Luke Whitelock though is nowhere near All Blacks level and not even close to Luatua's standard.

I second nickdnz's post particulary in relation to Tamati Elison, I think he came back from Japan a better player than when he left to be honest. And he did it all for the woeful Highlanders? You've either forgotten about him or are watching a completely different game than the rest of us! Agree Smith came back strongly though! There are of course others who have had a stint in Japan and come back strong, Nonu, Leon MacDonald, SBW....(yes I know he went to league but still - and he'll be back next year so...)

EDIT: If Kaino has the will he will make it back to AB level, I have no doubt. We seem to be forgetting he is only 30 and arguably the best player in the 2011 World Cup (that's not that long ago).

 

[ABs2011]

luke whitelock and brad shields were very good this season, but Luatua is definitely the better out of the three, providing consistently excellent performances starting for the blues! Truley sad for messam who was stuck behind kaino and thomson for so long, then didnt make the world cup squad being ranked behind victor vito. Then when hes finally infront of vito and ready to establish himself as the all black 6, he has luatua and shields right on his heels, not to mention kaino coming back. You get the feeling maybe hes just not meant to establish himself with the all blacks! From what i gathered, i think the blues are looking at playing kaino at 8, maybe a sign that kaino himself realizes he wont make the world cup at 6 with all the fresh talent and is happy to make the squad backup to read.

Yup Im with you mate, anyone who thinks the three are in the same league have clearly not watched enough of Luatua play. He was impressive coming in to a rubbish Blues side late last season, he was fantastic in the ITM cup for Auckland, probably the best player in the Blues this year and now exceeding all expectations in taking his chances for the ABs. I like Whitelock and Shields but neither have even been able to secure starting Super Rugby positions let alone step up successfully to the ABs. Different leagues!!

 

[Larksea]

as always they have kinda different styles, all 22 years old.

of the 3 the main edge Luatua has had is gametime. It's been much easier for him to break into the Blues starting lineup and claim the #6 jersey for the blues basically because Kaino left it vacated. The Canes and Crusaders have more experienced and more established players. Shields has had to share duties with Vito & Levave and Luke Whitelock has had to contest with George Whitelock and Kieran Read for game time.

The way I see it, Luatua has had the game time to establish himself and maybe has a slight height/size advantage. Shields has the best most powerful running game of the three and more physicality. and I think whitelock though he's the smallest has the best all round game and skillset and potentially genuine leadership qualities as a former U20 WC winning captian.

I honestly think Brad shields has the most potential of the three. He seems a very well rounded individual and he has genuine edge in his physical game over the other two and can be a real weapon as a ball runner. Statistically he has missed more tackles than he should have this year which is a worry but that is an area he will surely improve with experience.

Luke Whitelock his day will come when he genuinely takes over the #6 position for the crusaders. His older brother has vast experience and ability but surely it's just a matter of time - I think right now Luke is genuinely a better player than George.

Also expect shields to take over the #6 jersey full time next year and Levave will move over and Vito should finally smarten up and concentrate on #8 and being as best he can in that position.

funny for so long we had to argue kaino, Messam, Vito, Thomson... always had insane depth at 6 in NZ

I'd like to think Kaino could come back and be as good as he was. From what ive seen I just don't expect it. Even though he wants to come back I don't think he will and if he does it wont be successful, and I'm usually optimistic. From the few snips if seen of him playing in Japan and a couple of interviews I've seen.

 

[ABs2011]

as always they have kinda different styles, all 22 years old.

of the 3 the main edge Luatua has had is gametime. It's been much easier for him to break into the Blues starting lineup and claim the #6 jersey for the blues basically because Kaino left it vacated. The Canes and Crusaders have more experienced and more established players. Shields has had to share duties with Vito & Levave and Luke Whitelock has had to contest with George Whitelock and Kieran Read for game time.

The way I see it, Luatua has had the game time to establish himself and maybe has a slight height/size advantage. Shields has the best most powerful running game of the three and more physicality. and I think whitelock though he's the smallest has the best all round game and skillset and potentially genuine leadership qualities as a former U20 WC winning captian.

I honestly think Brad shields has the most potential of the three. He seems a very well rounded individual and he has genuine edge in his physical game over the other two and can be a real weapon as a ball runner. Statistically he has missed more tackles than he should have this year which is a worry but that is an area he will surely improve with experience.

Luke Whitelock his day will come when he genuinely takes over the #6 position for the crusaders. His older brother has vast experience and ability but surely it's just a matter of time - I think right now Luke is genuinely a better player than George.

Also expect shields to take over the #6 jersey full time next year and Levave will move over and Vito should finally smarten up and concentrate on #8 and being as best he can in that position.

funny for so long we had to argue kaino, Messam, Vito, Thomson... always had insane depth at 6 in NZ

I'd like to think Kaino could come back and be as good as he was. From what ive seen I just don't expect it. Even though he wants to come back I don't think he will and if he does it wont be successful, and I'm usually optimistic. From the few snips if seen of him playing in Japan and a couple of interviews I've seen.

I do agree Shields and L Whitelock are exciting prospects - in particular Whitelock. The all round game and leadership qualities you mention are certainly two of his big strengths. Shield's error rate both on attack and defence have me worried, as well as an apparent lesser work rate compared to the other two. Hence I see him currently as a lesser prospect and certainly not in Luatua's league. The reality is right now Luatua is already an international quality 6. The others in my opinion are not there yet. If in part this is because Luatua has had the game time and the others have not then so be it. That is all to Luatuas credit IMO.