A Super Rugby style tournament would significantly improve European nations...

[ratsapprentice]

I agree that lower number of games is also an advantage for SH sides - a significant one, too... but not nearly as significant as the more elite competition.
It would make much more of a difference to the NH sides' consistency, rather than their peak ability, IMO.

I think it would be even harder to force a condensation of talent onto the existing clubs, than trying to create a new tier of regions/franchises - It would be harder to justify beyond arbitrary reasons, in any case.

 

[barthelemy]

I do agree with you, this is a long shot and a tough one

I'm not too sure I'm understanding well your "elite rugby competition" point.

Or let me put this differently : How do you define the "Elite" specifics of Super Rugby ? What are the differences between our domestic championships and super rugby apart players number of matches, structural organization and maybe mentality ?

In my perspective, this elite rugby competition is the result of the organization and the goals of SH rugby at national and international level, all the organization of countries like NZ/Australia are made to feed the Super rugby and ultimately, the national team, this is what makes the super rugby an elite competition, the structure and the mentality behind this competition.

I do think that somehow clubs in France or England are trying to do the same (or would like to do the same), create an elite. Top14 or any other European domestics championship would like to see themselves as an elite competition.

However, they can't because they are too focus on themselves, not enough on the players (and the number of matches they are playing) or the national teams, too independent maybe (not being part of a larger and stronger european competition), too dependent on Financial results (or profits). I think you can change all this and integrate these clubs in a new organization if it is sustainable for them financially.

My point is to say : lets try to start slowly, lets create a super euro competition that would replace domestic championship, lets reduce match for players, lets see if it can be sustainable financially for clubs to be part of this competition and then I defo think that the elite thinggy could comme quite naturally if you create the environment for it. If the french clubs need to start to be competitive all along a year with Irish provinces, I think it will defo push them to be more "elitist" in their rugby and in their selection of players.

Again, I doubt that we can do without the clubs in France. Therefore, we have to start from the existing. Apart if somebody brings a huge amount of money to create franchise in France.

In that respect, the euro league idea of snoopy dogg seems to me quite reasonnable to start with.

 

[valley commando]

Nobody in Wales and probably Scotland wanted the regional teams certainly not die hard club fans, however the fans did not have a say, in Scotland it has worked, in Wales not so, as there is to much former identity still remaining with the Blues, Dragons and Scarlets therefore disenfranchising 1000's of fans, hence my feelings with 2 regions East and West Wales, these fans would re-enter the fold and the 2 new regions would be stronger.
The 8 regions I suggest in England and France ie Paris, Central France, South West and South East France, North of England, West Country, Midlands and London would create 8 strong teams giving a p[roper bridge between club and International rugby.
The only thing preventing progress is going to be fans and owners not seeing the bigger picture, the clubs would still exist as they do in Ireland, Wales and Scotland.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I agree entirely with you on the ideas that is important, and more importantly, possible, to create regions/franchises that do not disenfranchise existing supporters.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I wonder whether the staggering attendance figures for the World Cup have shown the RFU that there is a huge potential market of rugby fans who aren't presently attracted to the club game and was it significant that Kingsholm and Sandy Park were the only club rugby grounds used?

The RFU and PRL seem to have a fracturous relationship. Is it within the realms of possibility that the RFU having built up relationships with the owners of stadia in Newcastle, Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham, Leicester, Milton Keynes, London and Brighton decide they can go the franchise route above the current club system and without the need to rent the clubs grounds?

 

[barthelemy]

Maybe the franchises are the way to go forward but realistically, I do not see how you want to implement it in France without the support of the clubs sadly. Apart if they can have some financial profits out of it, Clubs in France won't never accept these franchises.

Fans are a different matter. If you can create an interesting competition, they could follow given time. As snoopy just stated, there is definitely a base of fans that are not attached to a specific club.

Or, as said, with big money, you just go over the clubs and create these franchises. But you need really big money (to attract talent), Top clubs in France are really rich.

 

[valley commando]

I wonder whether the staggering attendance figures for the World Cup have shown the RFU that there is a huge potential market of rugby fans who aren't presently attracted to the club game and was it significant that Kingsholm and Sandy Park were the only club rugby grounds used?

The RFU and PRL seem to have a fracturous relationship. Is it within the realms of possibility that the RFU having built up relationships with the owners of stadia in Newcastle, Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham, Leicester, Milton Keynes, London and Brighton decide they can go the franchise route above the current club system and without the need to rent the clubs grounds?

Interesting comments, you may have something there.

 

[barthelemy]

I wonder whether the staggering attendance figures for the World Cup have shown the RFU that there is a huge potential market of rugby fans who aren't presently attracted to the club game and was it significant that Kingsholm and Sandy Park were the only club rugby grounds used?

The RFU and PRL seem to have a fracturous relationship. Is it within the realms of possibility that the RFU having built up relationships with the owners of stadia in Newcastle, Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham, Leicester, Milton Keynes, London and Brighton decide they can go the franchise route above the current club system and without the need to rent the clubs grounds?

How the RFU could really have the money to create at least 5 franchises ? Is it really an option financially ? The grounds are representing a fraction of the cost, how do you pay the players for example ? How do you attract the best players to these new franchises ?

 

[valley commando]

How the RFU could really have the money to create at least 5 franchises ? Is it really an option financially ? The grounds are representing a fraction of the cost, how do you pay the players for example ? How do you attract the best players to these new franchises ?

First of all I feel a new high profile competition would attract greater levels of sponsorship and advertising, in addition if marketed correctly would also create a support base that would sell out the right stadia.
I feel that advertisers would be keen to see there names involved in a season long comp, more so than the fractious nature of the current European cup comps, with some group games pre Xmas some post Xmas and another gap until the knockouts.
I would propose this competition runs from Spring to Autumn, better conditions for players, leading to improved skill levels which would transfer directly to International squads and less weather disruptions to the fixture lists. Also less chance of fair weather fans opting out of taking the wife and kids to a freezing cold and or wet and windy miserable mid winter venue.

 

[Car]

Identification with a team can come quickly if the competition is interesting and the team is doing well. Fans in West Berlin had problems with Eisbären Berlin (ice hockey team from the east of the city) at first, but due to their success, that changed quickly. RB Leipzig's attendance isn't all too bad either, despite being an entirely artificial team run by Red Bull: the fans in Leipzig finally want a good football team.

And please give those of us outside of countries where the European competitions are not shown on TV better access, it actually got worse in recent years. Why can I watch every single SR match, but none any more from the Champions Cup? I'd gladly pay for it, but they don't let me.

 

[barthelemy]

First of all I feel a new high profile competition would attract greater levels of sponsorship and advertising, in addition if marketed correctly would also create a support base that would sell out the right stadia.
I feel that advertisers would be keen to see there names involved in a season long comp, more so than the fractious nature of the current European cup comps, with some group games pre Xmas some post Xmas and another gap until the knockouts.
I would propose this competition runs from Spring to Autumn, better conditions for players, leading to improved skill levels which would transfer directly to International squads and less weather disruptions to the fixture lists. Also less chance of fair weather fans opting out of taking the wife and kids to a freezing cold and or wet and windy miserable mid winter venue.

As some southern hemisphere fans have mentioned before, it is not the number of fans who come to the stadium that are bringing the money but much more the TV rights and the number of people that are watching this on TV.

Otherwise, yep agreed that if you create the conditions of a good competition, it will bring in sponsors easily.

Identification with a team can come quickly if the competition is interesting and the team is doing well. Fans in West Berlin had problems with Eisbären Berlin (ice hockey team from the east of the city) at first, but due to their success, that changed quickly. RB Leipzig's attendance isn't all too bad either, despite being an entirely artificial team run by Red Bull: the fans in Leipzig finally want a good football team.

And please give those of us outside of countries where the European competitions are not shown on TV better access, it actually got worse in recent years. Why can I watch every single SR match, but none any more from the Champions Cup? I'd gladly pay for it, but they don't let me.

Good points. SR is easy to access on TV.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

How the RFU could really have the money to create at least 5 franchises ? Is it really an option financially ? The grounds are representing a fraction of the cost, how do you pay the players for example ? How do you attract the best players to these new franchises ?

It's a great question. It would be very hard to implement.

Presumably they have a good relationship with both Gloucester and Exeter given they hired their stadia for the World Cup. A club such as Yorkshire Carnegie is marketing itself as being a club representative of an entire region and is currently outside the Premiership. I'm sure they could be tempted over to the RFU side. Therefore potentially the RFU would already have a few established clubs ready to row in behind them which would minimize costs.

I'd view it as more of a negotiating tool for the RFU to get PRL in line. I don't see the RFU going above the clubs heads but instead trying to forge a strong partnership with them. They made need the threat of being left behind to encourage them to all get on the same page.

 

[valley commando]

As some southern hemisphere fans have mentioned before, it is not the number of fans who come to the stadium that are bringing the money but much more the TV rights and the number of people that are watching this on TV.

Otherwise, yep agreed that if you create the conditions of a good competition, it will bring in sponsors easily.



Good points. SR is easy to access on TV.

I see full stadiums as a route to good TV deals, there is a good chance maybe Sky or BT with secondary rights to ITV/RTE and Canal would get involved and throw good money at a new competition if given the opportunity.
1/2 empty stadiums are a turn off for potential sponsors and TV chiefs, having seen attendances at many pro 12 games being very low and having watched Perpignan several times during their last 3 seasons in the top 14 prior to relegation they also had disappointing levels of attendance, my feeling is a European Super League would fill grounds and therefore the whole package would be attractive to TV, sponsors and fans.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

my feeling is a European Super League would fill grounds and therefore the whole package would be attractive to TV, sponsors and fans.

Sidetracking the issue a little but I wonder if TV is the way to go in future. Yahoo reportedly paid the NFL $20 million for the rights to exclusively stream the Wembley game between the Jacksonville Jaguars and Buffalo Bills yesterday to a US audience. Consider that the game took place at 9.30am eastern time and 6.30am Pacific time and you'd have to wonder what it could achieve for the rights to primetime slots. There has been talk that Google/Youtube are looking to enter into the market for sports rights. If that happens, I think we'll see the value of deals explode.

The US population is 316 million compared to the population of the 6 Nations of circa 135 million. Add in Romania and Georgia and you've a population base of 160 million. Naturally the media deals for the NFL are bigger but given Europe as a whole has a population of around 750 million, surely with a bit of ambition and forward thinking the stakeholders of European rugby should be looking to grow the market and media deals to a much higher level. A Euroleague slowly expanding into Belgium (already staged a European Cup game), Switzerland (ditto), Spain (hosted a Heineken Cup semi final and hosts the Top 14 final), Georgia and Romania opens up the market still further. The present structure won't allow that to happen.

 

[munstermuffin]

Sidetracking the issue a little but I wonder if TV is the way to go in future. Yahoo reportedly paid the NFL $20 million for the rights to exclusively stream the Wembley game between the Jacksonville Jaguars and Buffalo Bills yesterday to a US audience. Consider that the game took place at 9.30am eastern time and 6.30am Pacific time and you'd have to wonder what it could achieve for the rights to primetime slots. There has been talk that Google/Youtube are looking to enter into the market for sports rights. If that happens, I think we'll see the value of deals explode.

The US population is 316 million compared to the population of the 6 Nations of circa 135 million. Add in Romania and Georgia and you've a population base of 160 million. Naturally the media deals for the NFL are bigger but given Europe as a whole has a population of around 750 million, surely with a bit of ambition and forward thinking the stakeholders of European rugby should be looking to grow the market and media deals to a much higher level. A Euroleague slowly expanding into Belgium (already staged a European Cup game), Switzerland (ditto), Spain (hosted a Heineken Cup semi final and hosts the Top 14 final), Georgia and Romania opens up the market still further. The present structure won't allow that to happen.

Snoop issue there is NFL adverts make that money back easily. So I presume it was a no brained for yahoo with the exposure on their site.
For a European league to work you need it to be fully supported in rugby and not be a scenario like the regions in Wales when they were created

 

[valley commando]

Sidetracking the issue a little but I wonder if TV is the way to go in future. Yahoo reportedly paid the NFL $20 million for the rights to exclusively stream the Wembley game between the Jacksonville Jaguars and Buffalo Bills yesterday to a US audience. Consider that the game took place at 9.30am eastern time and 6.30am Pacific time and you'd have to wonder what it could achieve for the rights to primetime slots. There has been talk that Google/Youtube are looking to enter into the market for sports rights. If that happens, I think we'll see the value of deals explode.

The US population is 316 million compared to the population of the 6 Nations of circa 135 million. Add in Romania and Georgia and you've a population base of 160 million. Naturally the media deals for the NFL are bigger but given Europe as a whole has a population of around 750 million, surely with a bit of ambition and forward thinking the stakeholders of European rugby should be looking to grow the market and media deals to a much higher level. A Euroleague slowly expanding into Belgium (already staged a European Cup game), Switzerland (ditto), Spain (hosted a Heineken Cup semi final and hosts the Top 14 final), Georgia and Romania opens up the market still further. The present structure won't allow that to happen.

certainly sounds like a viable option.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Interesting quote from the head of Rugby Europe:

'We want to organise, along with EPCR [European Professional Club Rugby] or if not the support of World Rugby, a cross-border competition using the model of the PRO 12 where Georgian, Romanian, Russian, Belgian, Spanish and Portuguese franchises could compete, ensuring that those who play in their home countries have good competition.'

From here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ru...president-Octavian-Morariu.html#ixzz3pm9REcsz

 

[Peat]

How the RFU could really have the money to create at least 5 franchises ? Is it really an option financially ? The grounds are representing a fraction of the cost, how do you pay the players for example ? How do you attract the best players to these new franchises ?

The RFU is definitely capable of borrowing sufficient money for start-up costs against its future earnings.

The real issue is, as you say, players. Even if the money's there, they might not be able to persuade them. Working with the clubs would make things a lot smoother there.

 

[ratsapprentice]

The RFU is definitely capable of borrowing sufficient money for start-up costs against its future earnings.

+existing relationships with premium sponsors and corporate ties.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Snoop issue there is NFL adverts make that money back easily. So I presume it was a no brained for yahoo with the exposure on their site.
For a European league to work you need it to be fully supported in rugby and not be a scenario like the regions in Wales when they were created

Without question, the NFL model of stop start action lends itself very favourably to advertising revenue via breaks in play and the length of games hitting 3 hours. It's also a far bigger sport in the US than rugby is in Europe. Rugby does have some advantages. Without wishing to sound snobbish, sponsors love rugby and pay a lot as is because it's viewed as having supporters with a higher income (the ABC1 demographic) - more money means we'll spend more on their products than, say, football supporters. Unfortunately I don't have the stats to hand but for advertisers, commercials during play rather than during ad breaks give them far more bang for their buck. Rugby teams carry sponsorship logos on jerseys which isn't the case in the NFL. That's a huge potential revenue stream. There also exists the opportunity for running advertising throughout games by sticking a logo beside the scoreboard. If rights are sold to web based companies, these clickable in-game logos become very valuable.

All of which sidetracks the issue entirely. I wonder whether Octavian Morariu's comments which @ratsapprentice highlighted could come to fruition. My gut tells me it would lose a lot of money but I'd love to see it work.