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A new GIANT winger for Waratahs: Taqele Naiyaravaro (MASS)

Once again you missing their point, and by some distance.
Lomu is arguably the biggest, fastest, strongest and most explosive player ever - those factors combined
To say Lomu is overrated as a winger in his time, farkid lad, you on something?

Hugo Porta was not selected for his ability to run over people or tackle them off; neither should Lomu be concidered for his ability to do a dropkick or intercept a ball, to wear the "complete player" tag, what bull**** is that?

Lomu never scored against the Boks as he was marked by the likes of Joost vd Westhuisen, James Smalll and Japie Mulder.
He deserved that attention as he was that frightening a prospect. And when Japie Mulder said he was freak of nature, I would not disagree

Lomu was a good winger, a very good winger, Ok? But he's known as the BEST PLAYER EVER. To me, that ***le is too big for him.

For me it is unfair that he's more famous than Tana Umaga. He is the most famous player in rugby history. I agree with that but he isn't the best rugby player ever IMO.

He did a lot for our sport, he became more famous our sport. Even people who don't follow rugby talk about him but we who are true rugby supporters must recognize that he is not our best player. Okay that is rewarded, because he spread the sport and was a great player. But he isn't the best player ever. There were many players better than him.

I prefer the best Bryan Habana over the best Lomu.
 
Conrad, my question to you (which you have not answered) was regarding your comment that Lomu had the advantage of playing when rugby wasn't professional. This is factually untrue. As I said he played almost all of his career during the pro era, so why say otherwise? Seems you don't have your facts right.

Regardless though, it is pointless to rate him based on anything other than what he achieved in the era he achieved it in - it is all relative after all. There is no point trying to judge Lomu based on how you think he would have gone in the current era or a different era to what he played in. Chris Lewis's winning time in the 1984 Olympics would have got him 8th in London 2012. Does that take anything away from his achievements? Of course not.

Look I don't want to get into a debate about how good Lomu was or wasnt, it is subjective after all. What you can say about Lomu is that he did things on the rugby field year after year that no player even came close to matching. He scored freakish try after try at the highest level of rugby and he was often unstoppable. Gena_ZA has made this point to you very clearly above. No one has come close to Lomu in this respect since.

Not to mention the fact that calling Lomu "the most overrated player in rugby history" really just shows your true colours in terms of your rugby knowledge.

Tana was a very good player, arguably a great one, but there are many others who I believe have done the same things he did on the field. The same cannot be said about Lomu - that is my point.

On a side note, you do realize in terms of the "most important" positions on the park, you have literally named every single position on the field, and I quote you: "front row, a second row and a loose forward. The backbone of a team: 2 or 3, 4 or 5, 8, 9 or 10 and an outside back" except the position that your "first choice" player played ;)

Are you sure you've been watching rugby since the 90s? It certainly doesn't come across like that most of the time :huh:

I saw rugby in the 90s, ok? What I mean is this: Lomu started his career in 1994, rugby turned professional since 1996. He made most of his career in the early professionalism, ok? In the BEGINNING of professionalism.

Is not the same a young professional rugby than a mature rugby as today. Rugby has grown a lot in the last 20 years, we have more professional players, more professional teams, better physical trainers, training has greatly improved. In the begining of professional rugby players were smaller. Now with almost 20 years of professionalism, rugby has grown. Training is much more advanced and have better athletes, stronger. Now we have many big backs such as: Manu Tuilagi, Alesana Tuilagi, Jamie Roberts, Nemani Nadolo, Luther Burrell, Sonny Bill Williams, Ma'a Nonu, George Moala, Mathieu Bastareaud, Alipaté Fatafehi and others.

I think the power of Lomu would not be the same today than 15 years ago, at the beginning of the professional era, ok?

Tana Umaga > Jonah Lomu

In the 90s Lomu was running over 12st players. These days the average weight of backs is probably about 15st. I remember when Ireland played NZ years ago, the Irish targeted Lomus wing with kicks in behind. It was an easy territory gain for Ireland. Also they put 16st Shane Horgan on the wing to mark him and Horgan was big enough to nullify Lomu's attacking threat. So Lomu was the weak link in the NZ team that day.

Brilliant! Lomu was a strong and fast player but he was not very complete, he had many flaws that any rugby coach could exploit today. Now players are stronger and better athletes. Undoubtedly Lomu playing today, nor would the nuclear bomb that was in the 90s and early twenty-first century.
 
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I saw rugby in the 90s, ok? What I mean is this: Lomu started his career in 1994, rugby turned professional since 1996. He made most of his career in the early professionalism, ok? In the BEGINNING of professionalism.

Is not the same a young professional rugby than a mature rugby as today. Rugby has grown a lot in the last 20 years, we have more professional players, more professional teams, better physical trainers, training has greatly improved. In the begining of professional rugby players were smaller. Now with almost 20 years of professionalism, rugby has grown. Training is much more advanced and have better athletes, stronger. Now we have many big backs such as: Manu Tuilagi, Alesana Tuilagi, Jamie Roberts, Nemani Nadolo, Luther Burrell, Sonny Bill Williams, Ma'a Nonu, George Moala, Mathieu Bastareaud, Alipaté Fatafehi and others.

I think the power of Lomu would not be the same today than 15 years ago, at the beginning of the professional era.

Tana Umaga > Jonah Lomu

Not that it matters, but just so you know, rugby become professional in 1995 not 1996.

Otherwise I feel I am kicking sh ! t up a hill trying to get across to you that comparing sports performances across era's is fraught with major problems. You need to judge Lomu's career on what he achieved at the time, not what you think he might achieve now.
 
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Not that it matters, but just so you know, rugby become professional in 1995 not 1996.

Otherwise I feel I am kicking **** up a hill trying to get across to you that comparing sports performances across era's is fraught with major problems.

What's the problem? It's only a year apart between 1995 and 1996, is not a BIG mistake.

I think you're running out of arguments to argue that Lomu is the best player ever.

David Campese > Lomu
 
What's the problem? It's only a year apart between 1995 and 1996, is not a BIG mistake.

I think you're running out of arguments to argue that Lomu is the best player ever.

David Campese > Lomu
My goodness you are a fool.
1) I never said it was a big problem - I was merely educating you on you mistake
2) I never said Lomu was the best player ever - again I was merely educating you, this time on your flawed analysis
3) Campese was a great player - at least you got something right ;)
 
In the 90s Lomu was running over 12st players. These days the average weight of backs is probably about 15st. I remember when Ireland played NZ years ago, the Irish targeted Lomus wing with kicks in behind. It was an easy territory gain for Ireland. Also they put 16st Shane Horgan on the wing to mark him and Horgan was big enough to nullify Lomu's attacking threat. So Lomu was the weak link in the NZ team that day.

Unfortunately this isn't exactly true...or at all true. Lomu ran over plenty of large rugby players, you only have to look at what he did to guys like Vickery and Os du Randt...

As for Lomu being a weak link against Ireland - he only played Ireland twice, in 1995 he utterly obliterated them. In 2001 - which I feel is the game you remember, Lomu was hardly a weak link at all. He scored a try after all and Horgan didn't...they did try and turn him around with kicks, however these were Brian O'Driscolls comments after the game:

""Lomu is just devastating," said O�Driscoll, whose only previous encounter with rugby union�s most famous face came in a 40-minute outing against the Barbarians last season.
" Australia have targeted him in recent years, kicking high balls to him and trying to make him turn. I guess he does have some weaknesses, but going forward with the ball in hand he is just something else.
"I attempted to tackle him at one stage and he literally galloped out of my hands. He added with a wry smile: "The only way to stop him is for everyone to jump on him.""

http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/teamsheet.asp?MT_ID=2073

Doesn't exactly sound like he was a weak link does it? In fact it's a modern great player admitting he couldn't tackle him..

My point is I don't think the era he played in is responsible for his achievements. The only player on a list of big and tall wingers that has even similar dimensions is Nadolo in height and weight, and he's no where as quick or uses his height and weight as effectively. As for greatest rugby player ever its impossible to really say as its subjective...

I personally think Larry Bird of 1986 was the greatest basketball player of all time, others at the same time preferred Magic Johnson while I'd imagine Michael Jordan is the most popular response to greatest player of all time. It's a team sport which is judged subjectively so there isn't a right or wrong answer. I love Umaga, I personally feel he is the most complete centre of all time. He could tackle like a demon, run and step like a top class winger, do great offloads and 20m passes. He had great leadership, ran great lines, jackle brilliantly and could bust through tackles. But I'm sure many here feel O'Driscoll is the best ever...Doug Howlett had a better try scoring record than Lomu, was a safer player - but couldn't create magic from nothing like Lomu or even a young Joe Rokocoko could.
 
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I saw almost the entire Lomu's career.........Lomu is the most overrated player in the rugby history

Any chance these were the bits you didnt see? Oh and Conrad, just for you watch at 3:07 and note who he easily brushes aside ;)

 
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Unfortunately this isn't exactly true...or at all true. Lomu ran over plenty of large rugby players, you only have to look at what he did to guys like Vickery and Os du Randt...

As for Lomu being a weak link against Ireland - he only played Ireland twice, in 1995 he utterly obliterated them. In 2001 - which I feel is the game you remember, Lomu was hardly a weak link at all. He scored a try after all and Horgan didn't...they did try and turn him around with kicks, however these were Brian O'Driscolls comments after the game:


http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/teamsheet.asp?MT_ID=2073

Doesn't exactly sound like he was a weak link does it? In fact it's a modern great player admitting he couldn't tackle him..

My point is I don't think the era he played in is responsible for his achievements. The only player on a list of big and tall wingers that has even similar dimensions is Nadolo in height and weight, and he's no where as quick or uses his height and weight as effectively. As for greatest rugby player ever its impossible to really say as its subjective...


Just a few things on that.
Firstly I never said he was bad going forward. I said he had weaknesses that teams looked to exploit. BOD even said there himself that. Being that size its a certainty that he would run over players, even big players. Other players do that too.

From what I remember in that match was Ireland kicking in behind Lomu all the time and Lomu struggling. Ireland were not a great side then either but they were attacking that way. Lomu might have scored a try but it doesn't mean he played well. Its possible to score and have bad game. So I stand by what I said, that Lomu was the NZ weak link that day.

Ireland in 95 were a joke of a team and didn't fully embrace professionalism until the 2000s. In the 90s they lost to all sorts of tier 2 teams.

So for me Lomu had great strengths as a player but they have to be balanced by his weaknesses too. Also he played for the ABs against players from the amateur era who where lightweight and teams who didn't have the defensive systems of today. I say that to keep things in perspective.
 
His strengths - 95%
His weaknesses - 5%

I'd take a 95% try scoring beast anyday
These was a saying that rugby is a 15 man game - "You 14, get the ball to Jonah"
 
Any chance these were the bits you didnt see? Oh and Conrad, just for you watch at 3:07 and note who he easily brushes aside ;)

Jajajajajajajajajajajajaja that video was viewed over 5 million times, I saw it at least 10 times. I'm really amazed and disappointed at the same time, usually I'm used that the stupid football supporters talk me about Lomu, rugby supporters have many favorites rugby players then almost never talking about Lomu, is the most famous player then rugby supporters are a little tired to talking about him.

I came to this forum to talk about REALLY rugby with true rugby supporters. I can talk about Lomu with football supporters in any Football Forum, ​​ALL football supporters love him (Of course, they know nothing about rugby). I'm disappointed, I expect a Kiwi talk me about: Christian Cullen, Tana Umaga, John Kirwan, Sean Fitzpatrick or others great players. It's very boring to mention Lomu, he's the idol of the Rugby World Cup supporters, people who watch rugby every four years in each WC.



Just a few things on that.
Firstly I never said he was bad going forward. I said he had weaknesses that teams looked to exploit. BOD even said there himself that. Being that size its a certainty that he would run over players, even big players. Other players do that too.

From what I remember in that match was Ireland kicking in behind Lomu all the time and Lomu struggling. Ireland were not a great side then either but they were attacking that way. Lomu might have scored a try but it doesn't mean he played well. Its possible to score and have bad game. So I stand by what I said, that Lomu was the NZ weak link that day.

Ireland in 95 were a joke of a team and didn't fully embrace professionalism until the 2000s. In the 90s they lost to all sorts of tier 2 teams.

So for me Lomu had great strengths as a player but they have to be balanced by his weaknesses too. Also he played for the ABs against players from the amateur era who where lightweight and teams who didn't have the defensive systems of today. I say that to keep things in perspective.

Excellent comment! I agree with you.

C'mon Munster! The Red Army.
C'mon Doug Howlett! a HUGE player

Cheers
 
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Jajajajajajajajajajajajaja that video was viewed over 5 million times, I saw it at least 10 times. I'm really amazed and disappointed at the same time, usually I'm used that the stupid football supporters talk me about Lomu, rugby supporters have many favorites rugby players then almost never talking about Lomu, is the most famous player then rugby supporters are a little tired to talking about him.

I came to this forum to talk about REALLY rugby with true rugby supporters. I can talk about Lomu with football supporters in any Football Forum, ​​ALL football supporters love him (Of course, they know nothing about rugby). I'm disappointed, I expect a Kiwi talk me about: Christian Cullen, Tana Umaga, John Kirwan, Sean Fitzpatrick or others great players. It's very boring to mention Lomu, he's the idol of the Rugby World Cup supporters, people who watch rugby every four years in each WC.



To be honest, whilst Lomu will always be a legend, for mine the most impressive performances I have ever seen from a player were those of Dan Carter during the 2005 British and Irish Lions series. It was the most clinical, ruthless and polished performance I've seen from a playmaker in Rugby.
 
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To be honest, whilst Lomu will always be a legend, for mine the most impressive performances I have ever seen from a player were those of Dan Carter during the 2005 British and Irish Lions series. It was the most clinical, ruthless and polished performance I've seen from a playmaker in Rugby.

Lomu was a good winger, I would never say otherwise but I think the ***le: Best player ever, is big for him. I prefer David Campese before Lomu, a more complete player:

 
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Lomu was a good winger, I would never say otherwise but I think the ***le: Best player ever, is big for him. I prefer David Campese before Lomu, a more complete player:



Campese had a lot of problems to be honest... Had great pace and a step, but he couldn't tackle to save his life and he single handedly lost us the '89 Lions series. I wouldn't personally have him the top 5 wingers of all time, let alone crown him 'best player'. One of Australia's best wingers for sure, but still far from the complete player.
 
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Naiyaravaro could well get his Waratahs debut this weekend, after being named on the Waratahs bench.

Sorry to go off topic on a thread that is clearly about Jonah Lomu.....;)
 
Yeah I saw that. It'll be interesting to see how he goes off the bench. Perfect way to use him of course - last 20 with tired legs in the opposition could make him hard to handle.
 
I don't think one could say Jonah Lomu was a raging homosexual. That's just a strange assumption and statement, and I don't think there's any proof of that in the annals.
 
Campese had a lot of problems to be honest... Had great pace and a step, but he couldn't tackle to save his life and he single handedly lost us the '89 Lions series. I wouldn't personally have him the top 5 wingers of all time, let alone crown him 'best player'. One of Australia's best wingers for sure, but still far from the complete player.

And what about Lomu's defense?? With that SIZE, Campese wasn't as strong as Lomu but he made more amazing things.

I don't think one could say Jonah Lomu was a raging homosexual. That's just a strange assumption and statement, and I don't think there's any proof of that in the annals.

Jajajajajajajajaja C'mon Toulouse and Les Bleus!!!!!!!!
 
And what about Lomu's defense?? With that SIZE, Campese wasn't as strong as Lomu but he made more amazing things.

I'm not saying either one was better than the other, just that Campo was a much more flawed player than the highlights reels show. I personally reckon he's overly mythologised in Australian rugby, and that players like Ben Tune, Mark Ella and Nick Farr Jones deserve just as much - if not more - respect.
 
I'm not saying either one was better than the other, just that Campo was a much more flawed player than the highlights reels show. I personally reckon he's overly mythologised in Australian rugby, and that players like Ben Tune, Mark Ella and Nick Farr Jones deserve just as much - if not more - respect.

Same thing I think about Lomu, but I disagree. I think that Lomu had more failures than Campese, as Irish man said when Ireland faced ABs, Lomu was the weakest link of the NZ team.
 

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