5 vital players for each country ahead of the world cup?

[TheSaffycen]

Right For Me, though I've done this before I've changed my mind on a few things.
1) Robshaw- Because no one else, apart from Woods for 2/3 games in a pointless tour, has actually captained the side. Yes there are leaders but you can be part of a poor decision in a leadership group but the papers only write one name when it all goes wrong. Being the captain takes balls.
2) Launchbury- We lost a he part of our breakdown work from him. Yes Lawes/Kruis and Attwood have all been good, laws great, but none can replicate what Launchbury brings. I feel if we had Lawes out Attwood could partner Joe and we wouldn't be too far down. When Joe is in the team it is hard to see what player can replace him.
3) Joseph- Now with Manu gone we need this guy. Badly. He makes breaks galore and has the finishing ability of a winger, no one else in England can replicate what this guy can do.
4) Youngs- Only experienced hooker we have. George and LCD might be technically good enough but who knows if they can handle the big time.
5) Brown- I like Goode, but not in the England shirt, and Watson has a lot of flaws still too his game. Brown is the best runner off 13 we have and tight space runner he is as good as they come.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

5) Brown- I like Goode, but not in the England shirt, and Watson has a lot of flaws still too his game. Brown is the best runner off 13 we have and tight space runner he is as good as they come.

Checking over stats from the 6Ns, Watson conceded 10 turnovers- the highest. Although he did play all of the games and wings are vulnerable to getting isolated.
My five would be, in an attempt not to repeat:
1) Lawes: Really important part of the lineout now, and a big hit at the right time can completely change momentum (ref. Courtney vs. Jules Plisson)
2) Nowell: One of the only wingers we've got who is international standard at defence, could do with more pace but he shores up the wing
3) Barritt: Tbh the only inside centre I consider "safe". If he's like he was against Australia he doesn't detract from the attack that much and the alternatives of Burrell, Twelvetrees (those two in the centres feels like ancient history now), Farrell, Burgess , Slade, don't exactly fill me with confidence.
4) Marler: I reckon we can rely on Cole, but if Marler can reach the levels of scrummage he's hit before, we've got two props who can worry anyone.
5) Wood: Bit of a hypothetical one really, but atm I think he'll be starting at blindside, and if he can regain a bit of his 2012-era form I'll be happy.

 

[Peat]

I agree he'd be extremely unlikely to make the bench of world XV vs world xv B match. However my point was simply is it's not cut a dried he wouldn't make those teams I should of said could possibly get dropped.

Robshaw's main quality is he's good old fashioned workhorse. He does nothing flashy but will just keep tackling all day long. It's a great quality for a leader imo but when the chips are down you'd select flashier type guys if you had the choice.

I'm afraid to say I'd disagree with that point about it being cut and dried, at least with South Africa and Australia. Even with Wales and France it's sort of unlikely to say the least (Dusautoir is a better workhorse, so you look for a specialist to partner him). It's as much need for skillsets as it is talent mind.

And yes, this does have nothing to do with how vital he is to England, but the conversation has moved on GN10

 

[TheSaffycen]

Weird for a player who would get no where near a lot of teams, how many times could you say his opposite number has completely out played him. He was a captain on the receiving end of a 30-3 mauling and I don't think anybody could say he was bad. He managed to come off the pitch with his head held high, and then this year he out played Warburton.

 

[Peat]

Weird for a player who would get no where near a lot of teams, how many times could you say his opposite number has completely out played him. He was a captain on the receiving end of a 30-3 mauling and I don't think anybody could say he was bad. He managed to come off the pitch with his head held high, and then this year he out played Warburton.

Not that weird. Very good players usually leave the field looking good whatever the weather, and he is very good; just he is in an era with a lot of outstanding flankers and short of the specialised skillsets most countries demand from their players as he can't play blindside for any country that relies on their blindside to be a primary jumper and he can't play openside for any country that demands a more traditional skillset.

 

[dullonien]

I think the robshaw discussion is really interesting myself. I've never rated him as an openside, but that's because I'm comparing him to a glut of very good specialist 7's that litter international rugby atm. I do however rate him as a workhorse type blindside who could easily slot into a world class backrow combination given the balance is right.

A backrow of 6. Robshaw 7. Tipuric. 8 Ben Morgan for example has all the ingredients. Robshaw being the workhorse, Tipuric the breakdown and link play, and Morgan the go forward that Robshaw and Tips possibly lack. Lineout could be an issue though.

My point is that it's unfair to dismiss Robshaw just because his skillset isn't as great as some other more specialised players. I'd probably have him in the Wales side ahead of Lydiate atm, although I'd still prefer a Warbs/Tips combo.

 

[chippieolamus]

I think what this debate boils down to is that a back row needs balance. McCaw, Pocock and Warburton are all fantastic players, but you wouldn't want to play all 3 in the same team. A player like Robshaw could work exceptionally well if you put the right players around him, but as we saw in the 2013 30-3 loss you need that balance. Our back row that day was Croft, Robshaw and Wood, who have fairly similar strengths and weaknesses. Hence, no player there could carry that well, so we spent much of the game on the backfoot, which was one of the contributory factors to our loss.

 

[TobesHodges]

On a tangent for everyone's sanity of what this threads become
Did Johnny May really deserve to get the boot out of England so harshly after maybe 2 bad performances, I thought before then he had been one of our most consistent wingers, big, strong, with great pace..
Am I the only one who thought this? :/

 

[Raggs]

Hardly consistent. I thought that dropping him in the 6N turned out just fine, Nowell did very well. Dropping him on the NZ tour was crazy and a poor choice.

If his defence is improved, then we've got a hell of a tough choice coming up. Nowell, Yarde, Roko, May, Watson... who do you drop? Yarde may not have had the best season with Quins, but his workrate is impressive and he has a very good record at international level. Watson has all the potential, but never yet realised it for me. Roko if healthy and in form, is probably the best we have in the squad. May is pure pace, and running straighter, great at chasing up and unders and given our occasional overlength kick, a very useful man. Not even going to mention Ashton.

None of our wingers are in the 5 vital players for me, but there are definitely players that I'd rather have in than out.

 

[Peat]

I like May a lot but Consistent, Big, and Strong, are three words I'd simply never use to describe him.

 

[TobesHodges]

I'm probably being to nice, i just thought he shunned pretty quick..

(Vid not to prove anything, just some decent trys) That try vs the AB's though

 

[ncurd]

May's biggest issue is decision making and I don't have any trust in it. Whilst he's scored some decent try's he's also butchered his fair share of opportunity's and it got to the stage where he need to start making the right ones more often than the wrong ones and it wasn't happening. The only thing he seemed to have learnt was run towards the tryline as opposed to touch.

I might be being a bit harsh but he's not a stand out performer with the other players vying for a wing spot. After 13 caps you'd expect more than 3 try's to his name and to have made the shirt his own. He hasn't luckily all the other contenders have not made strong cases (although I think had Roko not been injured we'd be saying other things) so he's still within a shout.

 

[yaboyjj]

Cole (probably only world XV player we have)
Launch (close to above)
Joseph (because otherwise it's Burrell)
Youngs (because otherwise it's Care)
Robshaw

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think it would be interesting to see May vs Watson in a sprint, who is faster.

 

[Maverick1987]

I think it would be interesting to see May vs Watson in a sprint, who is faster.

I expect it would be Watson because May would take 1 step forward and 3 to the side .....

 

[Shaggy]

That 'you should respect my opinion' line is one of the stupidest around as it implies that all opinions are worthy of respect. Everyone is entitled to their opinion yes, but others don't have to respect it. What people really mean when they use that line is 'I should be allowed to say whatever I want without censure'.

Yep, everyone is entitled to their opinion, provided that it's not a personal attack on someone. Their right to their opinion should be respected; that doesn't mean we have to agree with it, or even comment or reply to it.

If posters can't differentiate between an attack on their character, or someone posting adiffering opinion to the one they've posted, without resorting to name calling or labelling, they've got no business on a forum IMO.

The opinions that differ from my own, that I have "respected" the most in the past, have been the one's that are backed up with some sort of fact or reasoning for that persons view.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Yep, everyone is entitled to their opinion, provided that it's not a personal attack on someone. Their right to their opinion should be respected; that doesn't mean we have to agree with it, or even comment or reply to it.

If posters can't differentiate between an attack on their character, or someone posting adiffering opinion to the one they've posted, without resorting to name calling or labelling, they've got no business on a forum IMO.

The opinions that differ from my own, that I have "respected" the most in the past, have been the one's that are backed up with some sort of fact or reasoning for that persons view.

You can't say everyone is entitled to their opinion and then caveat it, that doesn't make sense.

What you are really saying is...not everyone is entitled to their opinion.

People who are hate filled racists, homophobic people are not entitled to an opinion....in my opinion!

On a different topic should be lynch Connor O'Shea for trying to turn robshaw into a 7?

 

[Feicarsinn]

Haven't seen an Ireland one in a while, so:

1) Johnny Sexton. Our best player, and our only international quality 10. We look like a bunch of children without him.
2) Paul O'Connell. We're thin at lock and despite age taking away some of his mobility, he's still a huge presence in the pack.
3) Conor Murray. Good scrum halves are hard to find in the NH at the moment. Ireland's game is built around the half backs controlling where the game is played, whether through the boot or through the hands. Murray is as important at Sexton in this regard.
4) Rob Kearney. Has a fair few weaknesses to his game, but he brings experience and is a cut above any of the other full backs in the side. His aerial threat is vital to Ireland's effective offensive kicking strategy.
5) Rory Best. He'll be the starting hooker, but what's really vital is that he establishes his line out game early in the tournament. If he's consistent we stand a great shot at going far, if not we'll be digging in against the likes of France.


Fun list to do. Our age profile is very interesting. You've got a couple of grizzled old forwards and then 3 key players in key positions who are pretty much in their primes. Reasonably reflective of the overall 23. This is probably the best prepared group of Irish players we've had going into a tournament like this. No doubt it'll be awful.

 

[Peat]

All that grief you gave me earlier in the thread and you couldn't find space for SOB on that list?!

I personally think Ireland could cope entirely with POC not making the team as a player (particularly if Ryan is finally fit and firing), but the loss of his leadership would diminish the team hugely as neither Heaslip nor Best are in some distance of being able to replace him there.

Personally I think there's an argument that Robbie Henshaw is already on the list for Ireland. But other than Murray, Sexton, and POC as a leader, I think it's very fluid for Ireland in terms of who's vital.

Youngs (because otherwise it's Care)

And to think people were saying the opposite about a year ago... none of our scrum-halves are an essential presence (I bet there's a few around who'd rather chuck both and start again with Simpson), it's merely essential that one of them is in form and that he is given the job.

 

[yaboyjj]

All that grief you gave me earlier in the thread and you couldn't find space for SOB on that list?!

I personally think Ireland could cope entirely with POC not making the team as a player (particularly if Ryan is finally fit and firing), but the loss of his leadership would diminish the team hugely as neither Heaslip nor Best are in some distance of being able to replace him there.

Personally I think there's an argument that Robbie Henshaw is already on the list for Ireland. But other than Murray, Sexton, and POC as a leader, I think it's very fluid for Ireland in terms of who's vital.



And to think people were saying the opposite about a year ago... none of our scrum-halves are an essential presence (I bet there's a few around who'd rather chuck both and start again with Simpson), it's merely essential that one of them is in form and that he is given the job.

I am one of those who would chuck both and start Simpson- but the fact is, that if Youngs is out, then Care most likely will start with Dickson also making the squad- both of them were playing some v poor rugby this season- I was thinking of the consequences more than the calibre of Youngs.