[2025 Six Nations] England vs Scotland - 22/02/25

[Vieux Talonneur]

Leadership such as that can only thrive in an environment that allows it. If you have a draconian head coach who will punish deviating from their plan, even when it's clearly failing, then players won't deviate.

We don't know what Borthwicks is like but there must be a reason he lasted so long under Jones, I suspect that is down to a similar coaching mentality. He may not be the straight up bully on a power trip like Jones but he could still have an incredibly stubborn and inflexible approach to being challenged and to players don't their own thing.

It's a shame Brian Ashton took over England when he did. He was a big proponent of players thinking for themselves but had an absolutely garbage batch of England players to work with.

No-one said it's easy.

But there's a lot of experience in our team and the senior players have to bring that to bear. And that will sometimes mean using their grey matter and taking responsibility even if that leads to some friction.

You can argue that you need blind obedience in the army, but on the sports field coaches should empower not command.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

No-one said it's easy.

But there's a lot of experience in our team and the senior players have to bring that to bear. And that will sometimes mean using their grey matter and taking responsibility even if that leads to some friction.

You can argue that you need blind obedience in the army, but on the sports field coaches should empower not command.

Funny enough even the army doesn't teach blind obedience. It's recognised as a weakness and a waste of training to have soldiers simply blindly do whatever they are told regardless of circumstances.

 

[BrokenWing]

Don't want them thinking about it too much though, or else they'd realise if they joined the air force they'd be sleeping in a hotel bed rather than a ditch.

 

[IT157]

Matt Dawson column: 'England want to entertain but winning is all-important'

England needed the bounce of a ball in their Six Nations victory over Scotland but are being rewarded for their fight and resilience, writes Matt Dawson.

www.bbc.co.uk

What on earth?

Seems accurate. What in particular do you disagree with?

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Seems accurate. What in particular do you disagree with?

Matthew Dawson

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Yeah let's play like wales and lose rather than they way we did and win.

Get a grip everyone. We weren't suddenly going to start playing free flowing rugby. This 6 nations the France and Scotland games were must wins, not just for SB but for the fans as well that deserve a victory at HQ. We've won, performance wasn't great but last year we lost. We've improved our defence, scrum and a few set moves in attack.

I'll take that over the loss of last year. Let's look for an improvement in the next few games before we write everything off.

 

[BPM]

For sure a coaching tactic. Quite sad really. You wouldn't get away with it in school rugby, butchering overlaps, yet you have some of the best players in the world not doing rugby basics, drawing and passing, utilising an overlap. You'd think they'd all be sitting their with their heads in their hands watching the post-game video analysis..

I think England will beat both Italy and Wales, but I think at least one of those games will be very poor, possibly both and SB will be out even if England finish 2nd.

Strange last sentence. I agree with you right up until the bolded. Absolutely no way Borthwick gets sacked with 4 wins, even less if that secures 2nd.

 

[Saintjay]

Don't want them thinking about it too much though, or else they'd realise if they joined the air force they'd be sleeping in a hotel bed rather than a ditch.

Having unfortunately worked with the RAF regiment i can confirm thinking within the RAF isn't always a given.

 

[dgc47]

For sure a coaching tactic. Quite sad really. You wouldn't get away with it in school rugby, butchering overlaps, yet you have some of the best players in the world not doing rugby basics, drawing and passing, utilising an overlap. You'd think they'd all be sitting their with their heads in their hands watching the post-game video analysis..

I think England will beat both Italy and Wales, but I think at least one of those games will be very poor, possibly both and SB will be out even if England finish 2nd.

All this talk about SB to be sacked regardless of what England's place is after the 6 Nations is mad.
Please forgive my ignorance, but if England win their next two games and somehow win the 6 Nations, will the support still want him gone?

 

[BrokenWing]

Having unfortunately worked with the RAF regiment i can confirm thinking within the RAF isn't always a given.

See, you've used the word "regiment"

I meant real RAF, not the wannabe infantry.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

 

[BPM]

All this talk about SB to be sacked regardless of what England's place is after the 6 Nations is mad.
Please forgive my ignorance, but if England win their next two games and somehow win the 6 Nations, will the support still want him gone?

The 'support' might, but the RFU definitely won't.

I stand by what I've said many times before. I think Borthwick could become a very good head coach. However, 1) he really shouldn't be learning on the job and 2) his learning curve seems to be pretty glacial.

He needs to do a better job of understanding his own strengths and weaknesses and get the back room staff that offer the expertise to add to the areas he's not good at: most pertinently attack and selection.

Selection is a funny one. I think he picks sides that look good on paper but then seems to give them a game plan that actively negates their strengths. Saturday was a case in point - a second playmaker and a smaller elusive winger makes 0 sense when kick, kick and kick is the only tactic. If that's what the plan was, why not pick Spencer, Roebuck and Steward?

Until there is an obviously better option, I think we have to back him and hope we start seeing tangible improvement. Yes, the results have got better but the performances are still patchy at best and that is being exceptionally kind.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Exceptionally kind is still a bit of a stretch, but at least we have 2 wins and a decent fight against Ireland.

I'm still puzzled and unable to see any real structure in attack, defence or in transition and the panic that seems to ripple the team around backs that feeling up. Three years now and we're still ****. Not good at anything when you started, fine, but you should have sorted a bit out by now.

 

[Zed]

Strange last sentence. I agree with you right up until the bolded. Absolutely no way Borthwick gets sacked with 4 wins, even less if that secures 2nd.

Well I'm just thinking if England only just beat Italy with another poor performance after France put 70 points on them, I'd think the knives would be out for SB. I can't see people getting carried away with 3 wins on the trot after another turgid game. And then Wales at home. 2nd in the 6N is pretty respectable, but you'd like to think those in charge could see that achievement in context. Ireland beat them, France stole defeat from the jaws of victory, Scotland outscored them 3 tries to 1, Italy and Wales are poor with the latter losing 15 games on the trot and if they don't play well against them, but still win....

I always look at the Wallabies performances in context i.e OK we beat this team at home, but how are we going to go against the AB's at Eden Park. And a week later we are back on home soil with our tails between our legs.

If England have a solid win against Italy and scrape a win against Wales, SB's England coaching career might not quite be over, but a loss or two ugly wins and he's gonski.

 

[Zed]

Seems accurate. What in particular do you disagree with?

Nothing wrong with playing 10 man rugby if it grinds out win after win. The problem is you won't beat teams like the ABs or SA playing 10 man rugby. You need to be able to play conservatively and expansively and England can't or won't do the latter.

"England have found a little edge over the past couple of games where they have gone behind and it is invaluable experience for these players to bounce back and grind out the win"

Did they grind out a win against Scotland? A last minute conversion would have won the game for Scotland and France dropped so many balls, they should have won handsomely. It was a great try at the end by England though.

Sometimes teams can blossom after they start having a bit of success, I just don't see this with England and SB. Finishing 2nd, playing this 10 man style of rugby will just reaffirm to him that he's on the right track.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Strange last sentence. I agree with you right up until the bolded. Absolutely no way Borthwick gets sacked with 4 wins, even less if that secures 2nd.

Yep. It's unusual to get sacked if you meet your main target for the year.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Exceptionally kind is still a bit of a stretch, but at least we have 2 wins and a decent fight against Ireland.

I'm still puzzled and unable to see any real structure in attack, defence or in transition and the panic that seems to ripple the team around backs that feeling up. Three years now and we're still ****. Not good at anything when you started, fine, but you should have sorted a bit out by now.

True, but the RWC was his first target and he did whatever was necessary. Only 5 of the 10 backs involved in the semi are even available to SB now before you even start thinking about the vagaries of form and fitness.

Only 3 of those 5 were involved on Sat and Mitchell was the only back who started both (in 23 Daly started and Lawrence was on the bench).

Plus 2 of our major attacking weapons in IFW and Furbank aren't around. IFW looks the real deal and is capable of individual moments, while Furbank seemed fairly central to the way SB wanted to play.

I'm no SB apologist but it's not exactly a shock we're not that fluent at the moment. Being on our 4th 10 in fairly short order doesn't help either (largely self inflicted). Although style wise I'm still at a total loss as to what happened on Sat and can only put it down to one of those mysteries of the universe.