[2024 Six Nations] Italy vs England - 03/02/24

[Geordie]

No Obano and no Spencer in the 23, Roots, Ford, Daly

Ford and Daly are red flags for play style - their only roles under SB have been to kick and to chase

Well ive said my bit on Roots so ill leave that.

The thing is...Ford can really play...he isnt just a kicker..so we need to really see him open up abit. But his form hasnt been top...

Daly is a playmaker...he just shouldnt be used as a kick chaser. I love the idea of him on the wing (huge kick, genuine pace, playmaker)...but that was a few years ago when he still had his "genuine" pace. Again...hes probably in there as an experienced head more than anything...so im waiting to see how they actually perform on the pitch.

I dont think it'll be pretty but I think they really need to put a marker down as a team. Make a statement to the rest of the teams.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

huge kick, genuine pace

Don't think these are the case anymore for Daly, looks slow and his kicking has been poor for Saracens

The thing is...Ford can really play...he isnt just a kicker..so we need to really see him open up abit. But his form hasnt been top...

No one is denying that Ford CAN play, it's more that Borthwick won't let him play - since he went into the RWC camp he's played (for club and country) an incredibly conservative/negative playstyle

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Yeah, CCS a mile off his LI form
Getting better for Quins now but he was pretty poor in his last u20s campaign - could/should be with the u20s now, realistically

I don't really think age group stuff's a great indicator.

He has definitely queue jumped but there's big potential and I see little harm getting some bench minutes into him. If he can't cut it he goes back to learn his trade more, if he can, well happy days and we get a 22 y.o monster with 20 caps. Borthwick definitely putting a premium on physicality which I agree with.

Like Pearson a lot but he drifts in and out a bit and his tackling often isn't decisive. Bit like CCS in terms of impactful interventions rather than incessant work rate.

I think CCS will mature into a genuine 6 / 8 option which is always good to have.

 

[IT157]

lolwat

An English backrower that people are clamouring to have them play for England. They are the cool namecheck players that people love to say.

Saw it a few years okay with Simmonds. in all fairness at the time he was a try scoring machine and really in form. He finally got his England chance but never really made an impression. Can see the same thing happening with Pearson unfortunately.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

An English backrower that people are clamouring to have them play for England. They are the cool namecheck players that people love to say.

Or maybe he's just one of the best options to pick?

Not everything is a popularity contest

 

[IT157]

Or maybe he's just one of the best options to pick?

Not everything is a popularity contest

Maybe. I like him a lot. Hopefully if he does get enough chances it goes the way of Earl and Curry.

 

[Saintjay]

An English backrower that people are clamouring to have them play for England. They are the cool namecheck players that people love to say.

Saw it a few years okay with Simmonds. in all fairness at the time he was a try scoring machine and really in form. He finally got his England chance but never really made an impression. Can see the same thing happening with Pearson unfortunately.

Definitely miles more of a pile on for people wanting Finn Smith to start. Pearson has no way near the hype and demands to play that the likes of Marcus Smith, Dombrandt, Arundell or Simmons got by fans.

 

[LIONSxv]

Pity Jack Willis isn't available, he is twice the player Roots is and would compliment Underhill and Earl well. Although I wouldn't have Earl at 8 anyway
Daly has purely been picked on a SB formula that he needs to have a minimum amount of overall caps in the side. Which is dull thinking. Far better to have players who are natural to the position and in form. Daly is neither

 

[Reiser99]

Yeah CCS is another that I find odd. I wouldn't have said he's played well enough to deserve a call up, let alone the bench. Is he a player that could be capped by someone else and so Borthwick is trying to tie him down?

It's just not an inspiring team. It's safe and comfortable, but I feel like that's the theme of Borthwick's reign and will continue to be.

 

[Saintjay]

Yeah CCS is another that I find odd. I wouldn't have said he's played well enough to deserve a call up, let alone the bench. Is he a player that could be capped by someone else and so Borthwick is trying to tie him down?

It's just not an inspiring team. It's safe and comfortable, but I feel like that's the theme of Borthwick's reign and will continue to be.

I don't mind the team but yeah he's never gonna be Steve "Danger Seeker" Borthwick.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

and would compliment Underhill and Earl well.

Think Tom Willis would, I think JW in there would be quite unbalanced

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Think Tom Willis would, I think JW in there would be quite unbalanced

100%. Don't think you should be trying to balance having 2 opensides by bringing in yet another openside.

 

[LIONSxv]

Think Tom Willis would, I think JW in there would be quite unbalanced

For the record I'd have Willis and then one of Earl or Underhill with Barbeary. However as we are selecting all flankers. I'd still sooner have Willis than Rootes at 6. Willis is better in ever facet of his game. His carrying in the tight is very good.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Think Tom Willis would, I think JW in there would be quite unbalanced

Yeah, I agree, although……

Underhill's point of difference is his tackling and hits harder than many much bigger blokes. Earl's is his attacking game and Willis the breakdown. If you're thinking line out Willis is a pretty big unit - similar size to Pearson - and the others can take the occasional one.

Quite balanced really! If totally academic.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

TBH I don't mind if we play dull, negative rugby if we look completely in control and absolutely suffocate our opposition. There is a difference between a dull but controlling game and simply clueless. To say Borthwick stripped the England gameplan back to its bare bones would be an understatement, he has utterly eradicated any aspect of our gameplan that isn't kicking after 3 phases max, wherever we are on the pitch. We literally have no gameplan beyond that. If you're going to do that, you better make sure you are consistently winning the kicking battle, which we weren't. If you can't win the 1 tactic in your plan then you are ******.

If you are going to play a limited gameplan, you need to execute it really well. The player selection is ok, some good and some not so good. It will all count for nothing though if they go out and play brainless rugby again. I'm more interested in seeing the tactics we use than the players. Jones at the start showed the same players with the right tactics and mentality can achieve much more. Jones at the end showed the exact opposite. Borthwick is currently not even at tail end Jones era bad, he's below that. If in this 6N he still can't figure it out, then he probably never will.

Given the uptick in English players performances in Europe, there really is no excuse.

 

[dirty harry]

I like this England lineup, Ford, Slade, Daly are all good ball players, and offer a variety of playing and kicking options. None are defensively slack either.

Mitchell I really like at club level, but he was so laborious at the RWC, like he was forced to play a slower controlled game that he wasnt comfortable with.

Let's be honest, first game up SB is going to kick and control the game early on, why take unnecessary risks. What i will say, is that I'd be annoyed seeing England kick in attacking positions again, that must be eradicated if they want to develop.

Tight 5 look solid, not a huge fan of Cole or Dan off the bench, but theyll keep the set peice pressure on.

That said, I really like this Italy team, last year they were looking incredibly competitive, until Gats gave them a tactical knee capping and they struggled to get back into the game. When they eventually started forcing Wales into their game they made too many errors.

I also like the balance of the Italy team, solid set peice platform, some destruction behind them, I like Garbisi if he keeps errors out, and ball playing good kickers at 10, 13, 14 and 15 mean Italy will look to a variety of kicking and going for it. Capuozzo isnt an out and out winger, he'll play a bit wing, FB, 10 and 13 especially off set peice ball.

Sun shining in Rome, a big crowd (there was a massive crowd v Wales last year, and it was my 5th visit and the first time it felt like a proper rugby competitive crowd spirit, they werent there for a party they were there with expectation), a loud crowd and a sloppy England start, I can genuinely see Italy sneak a famous victory. IF they can build on last year and put the RWC behind them.

Reality says England should have enough, if Italy dont Nick it by 1-3, I see England winning by 9-12

 

[Reiser99]

TBH I don't mind if we play dull, negative rugby if we look completely in control and absolutely suffocate our opposition. There is a difference between a dull but controlling game and simply clueless. To say Borthwick stripped the England gameplan back to its bare bones would be an understatement, he has utterly eradicated any aspect of our gameplan that isn't kicking after 3 phases max, wherever we are on the pitch. We literally have no gameplan beyond that. If you're going to do that, you better make sure you are consistently winning the kicking battle, which we weren't. If you can't win the 1 tactic in your plan then you are ******.

If you are going to play a limited gameplan, you need to execute it really well. The player selection is ok, some good and some not so good. It will all count for nothing though if they go out and play brainless rugby again. I'm more interested in seeing the tactics we use than the players. Jones at the start showed the same players with the right tactics and mentality can achieve much more. Jones at the end showed the exact opposite. Borthwick is currently not even at tail end Jones era bad, he's below that. If in this 6N he still can't figure it out, then he probably never will.

Given the uptick in English players performances in Europe, there really is no excuse.

I'm honestly just waiting for the first kick in the air just outside Italy's 22 line when we have an overlap on the outside.

 

[Saintjay]

I like this England lineup, Ford, Slade, Daly are all good ball players, and offer a variety of playing and kicking options. None are defensively slack either.

Mitchell I really like at club level, but he was so laborious at the RWC, like he was forced to play a slower controlled game that he wasnt comfortable with.

Let's be honest, first game up SB is going to kick and control the game early on, why take unnecessary risks. What i will say, is that I'd be annoyed seeing England kick in attacking positions again, that must be eradicated if they want to develop.

Tight 5 look solid, not a huge fan of Cole or Dan off the bench, but theyll keep the set peice pressure on.

That said, I really like this Italy team, last year they were looking incredibly competitive, until Gats gave them a tactical knee capping and they struggled to get back into the game. When they eventually started forcing Wales into their game they made too many errors.

I also like the balance of the Italy team, solid set peice platform, some destruction behind them, I like Garbisi if he keeps errors out, and ball playing good kickers at 10, 13, 14 and 15 mean Italy will look to a variety of kicking and going for it. Capuozzo isnt an out and out winger, he'll play a bit wing, FB, 10 and 13 especially off set peice ball.

Sun shining in Rome, a big crowd (there was a massive crowd v Wales last year, and it was my 5th visit and the first time it felt like a proper rugby competitive crowd spirit, they werent there for a party they were there with expectation), a loud crowd and a sloppy England start, I can genuinely see Italy sneak a famous victory. IF they can build on last year and put the RWC behind them.

Reality says England should have enough, if Italy dont Nick it by 1-3, I see England winning by 9-12

Surely the best performing 6 nations team can't lose to Italy.

 

[Geordie]

I don't get the negativity...

They'll have a plan to evolve and progress...they've picked players to do that.

First 50 efficiency, game management, then They'll open it up a bit.

Roots MOTM
Freeman 3 tries.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Saw on twitter that Roots has 77% tackle completion rate,
That's a concern, especially after how much was made of Barbeary's defence - I don't think his average was that low

They'll have a plan to evolve and progress...

Zero evidence of that throughout Borthwicks coaching career, but we live in hope