[2023 Six Nations] Wales vs England - 25 February 2023

[TRF_Olyy]

Apparently Earl has an ankle injury

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I'd rather Earl coming the bench than Curry, really. For me Curry is the kind of player who either starts or isn't involved.

Isiekwe, who is a lock, has been coming on at 6. So you'd hope that Lawes, who is a 6, will also be coming on at 6.

Only other complaint (and it's not even really a complaint) is that I would like to see Arundell get a start at some point and given our last 2 games, this seemed like the opportunity to do it. At the moment he's had a couple of fantastic cameos but it's hard to judge whether those are flukes or if he's the real deal. I'd like to see him get a start to figure out which of those it is.

Lawes is the only realistic lock cover (I discount the possibility of Dombrandt). Maybe Borthwick wants to keep some flexibility but it would feel odd to have a Plan A to replace both flankers while both locks to go to the full 80….although our unwritten constitution includes a clause that M Itoje may not be substituted.

Arundell's had precious little rugby recently and this will be a charged atmosphere so no problems with him not starting. Especially as, in theory, we're still in championship contention. But I do want to see him given more chances - he feels like a potential game changer, which I just don't see in Malins even if he's gone relatively well so far. Watson when fit is a no brainer. OHC I don't really have a view on which possibly tells its own story. Wouldn't totally discount May for the RWC either.

Apparently Earl has an ankle injury

Please not from training?

 

[ncurd]

Its our bench that worries me, Borthwick needs to hold off making changes as long as he can.

I'm in Canada on the weekend so I have to work out how I'm going to watch it. Think it'll be using VPN and ITVX *shudders*.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Lawes is the only realistic lock cover (I discount the possibility of Dombrandt). Maybe Borthwick wants to keep some flexibility but it would feel odd to have a Plan A to replace both flankers while both locks to go to the full 80….although our unwritten constitution includes a clause that M Itoje may not be substituted.

Lawes will be covering lock but I'd expect him to come on for Dombrandt with Ludlum shifting to 8 - the same as has happened the last couple of games. That makes sense to me as I'd be pretty sure that Dombrandt is the least fit of the loose five forwards.

After that I'd guess Curry comes straight on for Willis, whose minutes I think they're monitoring very closely due to past injury issues.

So yeah, as a general rule having 2 flankers on the bench seems weird but when you actually look at the individuals who should be substituted it makes much more sense.

 

[TommiG88]

I've openly had my doubts about Malins and I still don't think he's the answer BUT he has undeniably played well the last couple of games (frankly, he's completely outplayed OHC) and so dropping him would be very unfair IMO.

I would agree ball in hand, but he's received more ball that OHC. OHC has been far better in defence, but only an opinion.

Saying that I wouldn't drop him either currently

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Wales: Leigh Halfpenny, Josh Adams, Mason Grady, Joe Hawkins, Louis Rees-Zammit, Owen Williams, Tomos Williams, Gareth Thomas, Ken Owens (capt), Tomas Francis, Adam Beard, Alun Wyn Jones, Christ Tshiunza, Justin Tipuric, Taulupe Faletau.

Replacements: Bradley Roberts, Rhys Carre, Dillon Lewis, Dafydd Jenkins, Tommy Reffell, Kieran Hardy, Dan Biggar, Nick Tompkins.

Who the heck is 30 year old journeyman Owen Williams? At this stage I think poor Patchell is being trolled, unless he picked up an injury last time out (I see he didnt play versus Edinburgh).

Add in Halfpenny and if I was a Welsh fan I might just self combust with frustration.

England by 13

 

[Tooting Carmen]

Who the heck is 30 year old journeyman Owen Williams? At this stage I think poor Patchell is being trolled, unless he picked up an injury last time out (I see he didnt play versus Edinburgh).

Add in Halfpenny and if I was a Welsh fan I might just self combust with frustration.

England by 13

I don't think Patchell is injured, only that no Welsh players were released back to the regions.

 

[Nudger]

I would agree ball in hand, but he's received more ball that OHC. OHC has been far better in defence, but only an opinion.

Saying that I wouldn't drop him either currently

Ohc injured

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

Lawes is the only realistic lock cover (I discount the possibility of Dombrandt). Maybe Borthwick wants to keep some flexibility but it would feel odd to have a Plan A to replace both flankers while both locks to go to the full 80….although our unwritten constitution includes a clause that M Itoje may not be substituted.

Arundell's had precious little rugby recently and this will be a charged atmosphere so no problems with him not starting. Especially as, in theory, we're still in championship contention. But I do want to see him given more chances - he feels like a potential game changer, which I just don't see in Malins even if he's gone relatively well so far. Watson when fit is a no brainer. OHC I don't really have a view on which possibly tells its own story. Wouldn't totally discount May for the RWC either.



Please not from training?

Arundell has only played about 40 mins since he came back from injury. I don't understand why he is not playing for London Irish to get more game time. 5 minute cameos for England is not really worthwhile.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Arundell has only played about 40 mins since he came back from injury. I don't understand why he is not playing for London Irish to get more game time. 5 minute cameos for England is not really worthwhile.

He played close to 30 mins last weekend. He's not getting 5 minute cameos; I think Borthwick has every intention of giving him plenty of minutes.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Who the heck is 30 year old journeyman Owen Williams? At this stage I think poor Patchell is being trolled, unless he picked up an injury last time out (I see he didnt play versus Edinburgh).

Add in Halfpenny and if I was a Welsh fan I might just self combust with frustration.

England by 13

I'd rather Patchell played but Patchell turns 30 in a few months so he's no spring chicken either and given how bad his injury record has been his career hasn't been anything amazing either to be honest. Having said that I'd rather be played if for nothing else he has an extra half yard of pace over Williams and Williams is just a bit more safe and I'd rather a 10 who takes it to the line better than Williams but it's a much of muchness really. Jarrod Evans should be our 10 in my opinion but he can't even get a look in on a squad let alone a match day 23.

 

[TommiG88]

Ohc injured

Oh yeah I know. It was more in terms of Malins far outperforming OHC

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I rate Owen Williams,
Not really one for the future but could do a lot worse ATM

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I don't think Patchell is injured, only that no Welsh players were released back to the regions.

So a presumbaly fit Patchell is dropped from the squad from Murrayfield (as if the second half capitulation was on him) and replaced by a 31 year old whose last cap was 2017. Patchell must be kicking himself for not giving up on Wales at an early age and making big money somewhere as Owen Williams appears to have done.

I'm trying to think if there is a political WRU angle behind this selection (e.g, reward a player who comes back to Wales to retire) or if its tactical to not play Patchell against a superior pack. At least people who have seen him play think he is reasonable. Perhaps I'll be converted rather than groaning in dismay.

 

[dullonien]

No issues with Owen Williams at all. He's transformed the fortunes of the Ospreys since arriving through his all round game. He's a great all round player imo and would have been a regular in the sidd since 2017 if he stayed in Wales. Whether that would have been at 10 or 12 I'm not sure.

He's not as big an attacking threat as Patchell, or Jarrod Evans who's not in the squad, but that doesn't make him poor offensively. He varies his game well. But his game management is probably superior, and his defense is a real strength. An upgrade in just about every facet of the game over Biggar imo (maybe place kicking aside, although that's not been a strength of Biggar's recently)

 

[Jimbo]

Its our bench that worries me, Borthwick needs to hold off making changes as long as he can.

I'm in Canada on the weekend so I have to work out how I'm going to watch it. Think it'll be using VPN and ITVX *shudders*.

The bench is crazy, I don't really see the point of Dan Cole at all.

 

[Which Tyler]

I don't understand why he is not playing for London Irish to get more game time. 5 minute cameos for England is not really worthwhile.

He'll spend the week training with internationals, rubbing shoulders with heroes, and getting a variety of more one-on-one coaching; then on Saturday, he'll get 20-30 minutes of international rugby.

Had he stayed with LIrish, he'd have spent the week training with the same-old same-old, rubbing shoulders with the same-old same-old and getting the same-old coaching, sharing time with a greater number of players; then on Saturday he'd get 65-80 minutes playing premiership rugby.



If we want him to be ready for France'23, then he's got 3 more matches worth of meaningful international experience available; in addition to another 4(?) Prem matches. Alternatively, he can 6 weeks of the latter.

If any player gets more out of the latter than the former, then they're never going to make it as a pro (absent stratospheric levels of talent ala Caucaunibuca, who can make 50+ capped internationals look like schoolboys without any actual application).
If a 20 year old full back / winger can't learn anything from training and playing with Anthony Watson, then... I pity him. Thankfully, I don't think that's the case.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The bench is crazy, I don't really see the point of Dan Cole at all.

Who's better though, tbf
There's players who will be better long term - but building towards the world cup?
Schickerling won't be ready by then,
Heyes might, but is behind cole at Leicester so makes sense he's behind him at international
Stuart? Only just back from injury and not as good as Cole

Imo Heyes should've been involved vs Italy but I'm not against cole being there at all

 

[Jimbo]

Who's better though, tbf
There's players who will be better long term - but building towards the world cup?
Schickerling won't be ready by then,
Heyes might, but is behind cole at Leicester so makes sense he's behind him at international
Stuart? Only just back from injury and not as good as Cole

Imo Heyes should've been involved vs Italy but I'm not against cole being there at all

I'm not against his selection at all but for me he has to start you've got the likes of Smith and HA who I'd assume you were going to bring on to inject a bit of tempo and pace, with that you bring on the likes of Cole who is in fine form but isn't exactly going to speed anything up in the loose, just seems a little contradictory to me.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm not against his selection at all but for me he has to start you've got the likes of Smith and HA who I'd assume you were going to bring on to inject a bit of tempo and pace, with that you bring on the likes of Cole who is in fine form but isn't exactly going to speed anything up in the loose, just seems a little contradictory to me.

Get where you're coming from, but you could also say he comes on shores up the setpiece and gives the backs a better platform to work from (though Mako's inclusion counters that)