[2023 Six Nations] England vs Scotland - 4 February 2023

[AlRums]

Some pretty good analysis here, mainly if Farrell

Going after Finn Russell backfired for England

Two Scottish tries can be traced back to England chasing Finn Russell and leaving the defensive line compromised.

www.rugbypass.com

 

[Scotty]

I just don't think you can describe something as an obsession at this point in Borthwick's reign.

I can't stand Farrell and he's the first player I'd like to see dropped, but it would have been extremely naive to think he was going to be left out.

I agree with Matt Dawson - picking him as captain is too much of a commitment, but ultimately, I'm going to judge Borthwick on what he does moving forward.

Agree on your first point on Borthwick but dont actually agree he should be dropped, prem for AT 10! Has been very good this season because he is a 10 so deserves to be there and arguably deserves a starting spot. But i wouldnt have had him captain tbh, can be a leader without being captain.

 

[Crash Hamster]

I just don't think you can describe something as an obsession at this point in Borthwick's reign.

I can't stand Farrell and he's the first player I'd like to see dropped, but it would have been extremely naive to think he was going to be left out.

I agree with Matt Dawson - picking him as captain is too much of a commitment, but ultimately, I'm going to judge Borthwick on what he does moving forward.

I think we're agreeing violently about Farrell. He's certainly been playing well, at 10, for Saracens, but he's definitely not a 12. His stats from yesterday were poor and his reckless charging out of the line cost us at least one try. I'm also dubious about his leadership abilities; neither a good speaker nor a cool head. Even his kicking has been poor lately. I've not mentioned the tackling...

There's nothing there to suggest he should have been made captain. I'd call that irrational and odd action an obsession, but you don't have to agree.

Hopefully he named Farrell as captain with the intention of playing him at 10, then injuries changed those intentions but he couldn't really take the captaincy back at that point?

If he were to play him at 10 as captain, it would be more understandable, but he could have picked Tuilagi at 12 after the injuries. Of course, this would necessitate the banishment of Smith to the bench. I'd not be happy about that. However, he chose not to and it didn't work... again.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

View attachment 16021
Right, this guy is an actual idiot.

Lol, nothing about this is correct.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Lol, nothing about this is correct.

unless he's confusing Ford-Farrell from when they were four years younger with Smith-Farrell last year that is one of the worst takes I've ever seen. Farrell played a concussed flanker yesterday idk how you can say it went well.

 

[BrokenWing]

Could it be possible that Borthwick got convinced to give it a go with Nick Evans coming out and saying it could work?

One hot take that's sprung to mind is Evans has come out and said in the past that it doesn't work, BUT when it seems evident that Borthwick is keen on Farrell as captain, he's changed his tune to keep Smith in the starting 15?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

unless he's confusing Ford-Farrell from when they were four years younger with Smith-Farrell last year that is one of the worst takes I've ever seen. Farrell played a concussed flanker yesterday idk how you can say it went well.

The idea that they were the reason for the NZ comeback too completely dismisses how good Steward was in that game.

Also France against Ireland in the first half and Ireland v NZ in the first half of the third test was more impressive rugby than that.

Smith was really bad yesterday, as was Russell, really don't see how anyone sees those two as close to world class.

 

[Which Tyler]

Smith was really bad yesterday, as was Russell, really don't see how anyone sees those two as close to world class.

Does anyone?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

There's a small, but very vocal, minority of fans and pundits that genuinely think Russell is the best 10 in the game

 

[Crash Hamster]

Does anyone?

Yeah, I think playing fly half for two of the top 6 teams in the world gives you a reasonable chance of being considered world class.

I guess it's also possible to argue that, for example, there's only one world class scrum half (Dupont) so it would depend on your definition of world class, I suppose.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

There's a small, but very vocal, minority of fans and pundits that genuinely think Russell is the best 10 in the game

Aka the Scottish

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

There's a small, but very vocal, minority of fans and pundits that genuinely think Russell is the best 10 in the game

I don't think he's beaten Johnny Sexton in his career.

 

[BPM]

Borthwick has a reputation for being ultra analytical and also for being pretty brutal with his selection decisions.

If both are true, some big names might be in for a rude awakening if there isn't a sharp uptick in performance.

 

[Saintjay]

I can't remember but at least two news sites were reporting last week Farrell and Smith were always in SB's plans as the 10/12 partnership. So I wouldn't be shocked if it doesn't change. Especially as others have pointed out making Farrell captain.

I think even now I'm at the point of accepting England are just not good enough. The top four sides in the world have at least three or four players who are arguably the best in the world in there position. I don't know the exact stats but to win a world cup I think you have a link between amount of caps across a team and the 3\4 world class players. We have had those with potential or even those who have been world class. But at the moment they are no way near and I can't see that changing

As it stands England probably have one in Freddie Steward. Yet that is very debatable. I am not convinced Eddie has totally shafted England. Maybe, just maybe we are not that good. Yes perhaps we should be better. Yet with the players we have a rank between 5-7 in the world is about as realistic as it gets, it's about as good as we really are.

 

[Wasps92]

I can't remember but at least two news sites were reporting last week Farrell and Smith were always in SB's plans as the 10/12 partnership. So I wouldn't be shocked if it doesn't change. Especially as others have pointed out making Farrell captain.

I think even now I'm at the point of accepting England are just not good enough. The top four sides in the world have at least three or four players who are arguably the best in the world in there position. I don't know the exact stats but to win a world cup I think you have a link between amount of caps across a team and the 3\4 world class players. We have had those with potential or even those who have been world class. But at the moment they are no way near and I can't see that changing

As it stands England probably have one in Freddie Steward. Yet that is very debatable. I am not convinced Eddie has totally shafted England. Maybe, just maybe we are not that good. Yes perhaps we should be better. Yet with the players we have a rank between 5-7 in the world is about as realistic as it gets, it's about as good as we really are.

I'm starting to wonder myself if I've been deluding myself about how good this England team is. It seems mental that we were in a World Cup final just over three years ago. I'd convinced myself that Eddie Jones was the main problem and whilst I do believe his time was up (in fact he should've gone after the 2021 6N) it's becoming increasingly obvious that maybe we just aren't as good as we think we are.

The team is now made up of young players with potential, average Test players and players who have been world class in the past but are no longer in that bracket. We are absolutely miles behind France and Ireland.

I'm dreading the game in Dublin, I genuinely think it could be a record defeat to the Irish.

 

[AlRums]

By my calculations (not 100% certain) Scotland move up to 5th in world rankings above England and Australia which I think is the highest they've ever been

 

[TopTen2003]

I'm starting to wonder myself if I've been deluding myself about how good this England team is. It seems mental that we were in a World Cup final just over three years ago. I'd convinced myself that Eddie Jones was the main problem and whilst I do believe his time was up (in fact he should've gone after the 2021 6N) it's becoming increasingly obvious that maybe we just aren't as good as we think we are.

The team is now made up of young players with potential, average Test players and players who have been world class in the past but are no longer in that bracket. We are absolutely miles behind France and Ireland.

I'm dreading the game in Dublin, I genuinely think it could be a record defeat to the Irish.

Have to say I agree- this autumn and yesterday in particular has given me those horrible 2006 vibes when we were scratching around for a proper midfield partnership and never really looked like being a RWC contender.

We've usually had a pretty solid tight 5 for England regardless of whether we had the back row dynamism of the top sides like NZ etc, but at this point we've lost that tight 5 dominance and we don't look like controlling any game - against any opposition.

Going to Dublin and coming off second best physically will leave us with an absolute drubbing.

I think Borthwick can do well, but he has big decisions to make from a leadership perspective because both Farrell and Itoje- who I would class as two massive leaders for England- are not performing on this stage.

When I look back at history - Sir Clive Woodward was brave enough to drop a Dallaglio or a Wilkinson or a Back, if he felt they needed to sharpen up and get back to their best. If they can, Faz and Maro can and frankly they need the message.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

By my calculations (not 100% certain) Scotland move up to 5th in world rankings above England and Australia which I think is the highest they've ever been

World cup seeding system looking worse by the week.

 

[Jimbo]

Have to say I agree- this autumn and yesterday in particular has given me those horrible 2006 vibes when we were scratching around for a proper midfield partnership and never really looked like being a RWC contender.

We've usually had a pretty solid tight 5 for England regardless of whether we had the back row dynamism of the top sides like NZ etc, but at this point we've lost that tight 5 dominance and we don't look like controlling any game - against any opposition.

Going to Dublin and coming off second best physically will leave us with an absolute drubbing.

I think Borthwick can do well, but he has big decisions to make from a leadership perspective because both Farrell and Itoje- who I would class as two massive leaders for England- are not performing on this stage.

When I look back at history - Sir Clive Woodward was brave enough to drop a Dallaglio or a Wilkinson or a Back, if he felt they needed to sharpen up and get back to their best. If they can, Faz and Maro can and frankly they need the message.

Whilst changes and shake ups are needed I think punishing Farrell for not performing at 12 would be abit unfair at this point, give him a chance at 10 unless your bring another option in there entirely, it's crazy to play someone completely out of position who is the form in their league, can't defend his goal misses though.

 

[thejackal]

Statistically Scotlands golden year has finished with 3rd, they have not topped that in the entire 6N history. That places them as the 2nd worst team in the tournament. If we cannot expect our team to beat a team whose highest ever finish is 3rd, then we have serious problems. This isn't a 1 off loss to the Scots, this is now one of our worst ever runs against the Scots in the entirety of rugby history. I am getting tired of the current England team constantly setting records for worst ever performances in the whole history of rugby. Do these players have no shame? If someone comes to them and says "you have been responsible for setting a new record for worst ever performance in the entirety of rugby history" do they feel nothing?

If someone came to me and told me that, statically, I had been one of the worst performers in 3 centuries, I'd be pretty devastated. These players don't seem to give a ****. Under Jones they got 4 of the worst ever points recorded in the ENTIRE HISTORY OF RUGBY and did they give a ****? No. Now the first chance to make a statement and what statement do they make? They are going for the record of worst ever run against the Scots in history. Seriously, someone need to give these ******* players the hairdryer treatment. **** everything else, if you can't be bothered, you get the **** out of the team and we will replace you with someone who can. Look at what happened to the French team when they replaced a bunch a lazy, apathetic old guard with young players who gave a ****. England need to do the same.

There are few old guard who still deserve their places. Farrell and both Vunipolas need to go for a start. Youngs is useless with the odd, unimportant game where he performs. Players need to be told in no uncertain terms that, if you can't be bothered in the game, don't bother showing up for training. We need players with fire, with intelligence and with passion. As it is we have players who are physically there but lack any intelligence or passion.

I don't think the problems with England are physical, they are psychological and this appears to be completely neglected. England players do not seem to give a **** about England.

I'm sure they do give a **** about England but maybe they are not very good?. Easiest game out of the way for us, tournament starts next week. Really need to back this away win up with a home win against Wales. Same team again.