[2023 Six Nations] England vs Scotland - 4 February 2023

[Leonormous Boozer]

I think Farrell is such an imposing character and presence on the team that it doesn't allow those around him to grow as leaders, players and decision makers. I can only imagine Farrell runs the show at training, which is fine when you're performing (see Johnson 2000 - 2003) but when you're the weak link on a Saturday afternoon all it is doing is hampering the ability of others to step into that leadership role. While Farrell is there, there is no vacuum to fill hence we have a team of followers and not leaders and whether England win or not depends on whether Farrell is firing or about to s**t the bed.

Hmmm, I think that's a coaching and player fault if true. Ireland amd Wales have developed leaders in the presence of AWJ and Sexton.

Familiarity helps and I think guys like Ringrose and Keenan benefit from being in Leinster as they're not natural leaders by my estimation. But there's guys in that England squad who have been there long enough to step up onto the role. Itoje looks less of a presence now than he did at 21, Genge isn't the same voice he is at club level and in a relatively inexperienced backline Smith or Steward should have stepped up.

If Borthwick is cut out for the role he'll develop this but it looks like another failing of EJ's team to me.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

So on the bolded …

Which of the players picked have not been in form domestically/in Europe i.e. current from going in to the 6 Nations?

I'd argue Borthwick has picked the form players. While I'd agree Itoje has been nowhere near his peak level of performance for some time and was definitely poor yesterday, he's been consistently good for Saracens.

Does he need a kick up the arse? Absolutely. Should he be an automatic pick right now? Probably not. BUT … Who had a really compelling case to be picked in his place (the key question)? Honestly, no-one … I rate Ribbans and I'd like to see him get more opportunities with England, but he hasn't been tearing up trees to the point that he's made himself a 'must pick'.

Also, apart from Farrell, who has been picked out of position? Malins is a 15, but it's hardly like he wing is unfamiliar to him these days.

I don't want Farrell picked at 12, but the only alternative who is regularly playing 12 is Tuilagi, who is fairly fortunate to be in the squad IMO. Going back to form, he's been OK, but hasn't exactly shone for Sale. The other option is picking Lawrence, but that's also picking a player out of position …

On the italics, this is just petulant BS. We're in a s***ty place right now and one win might be as good as it gets, but would that be Borthwick's fault? The 6N features two of the world's top 3 sides. We play Ireland and Wales away from home too. That puts us in a very tricky spot and setting in ridiculously high expectations is not going to help. He needs time and a fair shot and frankly we can't afford to be arrogant and expect to win right now.

On Itoje. Very temporarily, Borthwick has a bit of a free hit at the moment. It's worth dropping him now to send a big message to both Itoje personally and the wider squad. I'm sure he'd get the right reaction, but if not we move on.

On 12, Manu's nowhere near peak but it is his regular club position and 10 is Farrell's. It feels like a total no brainer to me. Manu could do a perfectly competent job in a limited kind of way with the possibility that he might just have a big moment, but we can't expect him to be the potential world beater of 10 years ago. When Kelly's fit he and Manu can fight it out for the shirt. When paired with Farrell, Smith just looks uncomfortable and as if he's trying a bit too hard.

 

[BPM]

I don't disagree entirely. Itoje needs something to help him rediscover his form at test level and perhaps being dropped might be the kick he needs, but let's be real here … Borthwick was never going to do that ahead of his first game in charge. It would have been a suicidal move on all sorts of levels.

Itoje deserved to be there as much as any of the other locks yesterday. If Borthwick drops him for Italy, then fair enough.

I didn't dismiss Tuilagi as a viable option at 12. My point was simply that Borthwick hardly put out a team of Eddie-sequence positional weirdness as @Reiser99 suggested.

 

[Jimbo]

Out of interest - why do people keep calling for Lawrence at 12?

Is it just desperation?
From what I can tell, he seems to play IC about once a year, he's no more a 12 than Farrell or Slade are (as in, he could learn it with game time, but until he gets that game time, he isn't an IC).

IMO the solution to the problem of playing people out of position isn't to play someone else out of position.

ETA: for starts at IC vs other, from https://all.rugby/club/england/squad
Farrell: 56 : 164 (25% of starts at IC)
Slade: 18 : 185 (10% of starts at IC)
Lawrence: 6 : 53 (10% of starts at IC)

I don't disagree if an out and out 12 option is fit and available you would put them in if however you are forced into moving someone there I would prefer someone who defences have to actually worry about going forward, having someone who offers little to nothing going forward isn't going to bring the best out of your 10/13, logic dictates it's better to use the best option available than consider anything less than perfect equal.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I don't disagree entirely. Itoje needs something to help him rediscover his form at test level and perhaps being dropped might be the kick he needs, but let's be real here … Borthwick was never going to do that ahead of his first game in charge. It would have been a suicidal move on all sorts of levels.

Itoje deserved to be there as much as any of the other locks yesterday. If Borthwick drops him for Italy, then fair enough.

I didn't dismiss Tuilagi as a viable option at 12. My point was simply that Borthwick hardly put out a team of Eddie-sequence positional weirdness as @Reiser99 suggested.

I think we're kind of agreeing!

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The fact England look this clueless and still have gaping holes in defence 3 years into the world cup cycle says to me that Jones really didn't have any plan he was holding back. Defence should be pretty much sorted and likely it's just attacking shapes that are being tinkered with going into the final year, England look like nobody knows the systems. I cannot for one second accept that not showing your attacking or defensive play for every game between WCs only to unleash a fully drilled and practiced system for the WC is in the realms of reality. These things need to be tested in actual games.

Jones seriously ****** us this cycle. I think we are looking at 5th in the 6 nations and quarter final exit.

 

[Scotty]

The fact England look this clueless and still have gaping holes in defence 3 years into the world cup cycle says to me that Jones really didn't have any plan he was holding back. Defence should be pretty much sorted and likely it's just attacking shapes that are being tinkered with going into the final year, England look like nobody knows the systems. I cannot for one second accept that not showing your attacking or defensive play for every game between WCs only to unleash a fully drilled and practiced system for the WC is in the realms of reality. These things need to be tested in actual games.

Jones seriously ****** us this cycle. I think we are looking at 5th in the 6 nations and quarter final exit.

Your anger needs to be directed towards jones as it is here, not Borthwick out this new coaching team.

BS's hands were tied when Kelly Slade got injured and i do think he made some replacment mistakes but this team has alot to implement their own structures in attack which we did see but needs work, and defence, where Faz shot out leaving a whole.

BS and co arnt the saviours but i do think they will get things back on track but to expect all of EJ's work ingrained on the players to just be gone.

Finally this wasnt a weak team we were facing so was going to be a tough game and them defensive lapses is what cost us. But im gutted not angry tbh. 6N was never going to be a vintage one this year.

 

[BrokenWing]

One minute into the Rugby Union Daily podcast from last night and the comparison between resources and player pools has been brought up.

Sorry, but you can't use that if you're bringing in players from other nations, if anything it makes Scotlands player pool bigger.

 

[BPM]

Your anger needs to be directed towards jones as it is here, not Borthwick out this new coaching team.

BS's hands were tied when Kelly Slade got injured and i do think he made some replacment mistakes but this team has alot to implement their own structures in attack which we did see but needs work, and defence, where Faz shot out leaving a whole.

BS and co arnt the saviours but i do think they will get things back on track but to expect all of EJ's work ingrained on the players to just be gone.

Finally this wasnt a weak team we were facing so was going to be a tough game and them defensive lapses is what cost us. But im gutted not angry tbh. 6N was never going to be a vintage one this year.

Well said @Scotty

 

[BrokenWing]

Right, this guy is an actual idiot.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Your anger needs to be directed towards jones as it is here, not Borthwick out this new coaching team.

BS's hands were tied when Kelly Slade got injured and i do think he made some replacment mistakes but this team has alot to implement their own structures in attack which we did see but needs work, and defence, where Faz shot out leaving a whole.

BS and co arnt the saviours but i do think they will get things back on track but to expect all of EJ's work ingrained on the players to just be gone.

Finally this wasnt a weak team we were facing so was going to be a tough game and them defensive lapses is what cost us. But im gutted not angry tbh. 6N was never going to be a vintage one this year.

I don't blame Borthwick or the coaching team, I'm very frustrated at the extent of the damage Jones has caused.

 

[Scotty]

I don't blame Borthwick or the coaching team, I'm very frustrated at the extent of the damage Jones has caused.

I do get that and i do agree.
I wasnt angry at all yesterday tbh, i really dont understand some of the selections such as Iseikwe on coming on in the bsck row and taking Dombrandt off leaving 3 7s with very few caps , then 2 7s and a 5 in the back row with very few caps.

EJ's favourites in Billy, Itoje, TCurry(not apposed to this one as he always puts a shift in) Smith/Faz leading to smith not developing as a 10 and us not having any depth at 12 at all to the point we just dont have one.

These favorites were not playing well enought to be unchallenged yet they almost never were.

So now we are almost in a rebuild phase trying new 2nd row, back row and center and wing combos 5 games from a WC.

EJ has left us in a **** state, so bad it was prob worth him staying to the WC so we can rebuild aftwr with Borthwick.

Genuinely like the look of this coaching team tbh and think it will go well but not over the 6N unfortunatly.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

'Borthwick has boxed himself in with Farrell'

Ex-England captain Matt Dawson explains why new head coach Steve Borthwick is in a bind with captain Owen Farrell.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Crash Hamster]

Strange how everyone agrees about Borthwick's odd Farrell obsession, isn't it? He's not a 12.

Meanwhile, we've also got to look at the 'parachuting George back in then playing him for 80 minutes because we have absolutely no experienced third hooker' debacle, which is another charge to be laid at EJ's door, mate.

 

[BPM]

Borthwick has picked the sum total of one England side. I think it's a little early to say he has an 'odd Farrell obsession'.

After yesterday, I think we need to judge Borthwick on how he responds to the defeat.

Some will definitely say 'it's only Italy' and expect a BP win at a minimum, but the scale of their recent improvement suggests that this is no longer a foregone conclusion. I expect to win, but I don't necessarily expect Italy to be a pushover.

I think it would be naive to think we can play a second string team, so I suspect there's a fair chance we either stick with the same team or minimal changes. Borthwick will be criticised for it, but that's a lot better than risking a damaging defeat.

Personally, I'd bring Willis in for Curry and change the wings (I'd pick Watson with one of either Murley or Freeman), but I'd leave the rest of the side/bench as it was.

Ultimately this is a tournament we can't realistically expect to win so for me, the priority is getting the core of the side playing as well as possible and finding which of the newer players can add to the mix. If we can achieve that, it puts us in a better position going in to the RWC and I honestly don't think we need that much experimentation. Ideally, I'd like to see Kelly at 12, but if that can't happen, we need to figure out the best possible alternative.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

The guy just says **** to farm impressions I think.

I do get that and i do agree.
I wasnt angry at all yesterday tbh, i really dont understand some of the selections such as Iseikwe on coming on in the bsck row and taking Dombrandt off leaving 3 7s with very few caps , then 2 7s and a 5 in the back row with very few caps.

EJ's favourites in Billy, Itoje, TCurry(not apposed to this one as he always puts a shift in) Smith/Faz leading to smith not developing as a 10 and us not having any depth at 12 at all to the point we just dont have one.

These favorites were not playing well enought to be unchallenged yet they almost never were.

So now we are almost in a rebuild phase trying new 2nd row, back row and center and wing combos 5 games from a WC.

EJ has left us in a **** state, so bad it was prob worth him staying to the WC so we can rebuild aftwr with Borthwick.

Genuinely like the look of this coaching team tbh and think it will go well but not over the 6N unfortunatly.

errr Itoje never had anyone to challenge him really either.

Curry and Itoje made sense as favourites no other coach would've not picked them

 

[Jimbo]

Your anger needs to be directed towards jones as it is here, not Borthwick out this new coaching team.

BS's hands were tied when Kelly Slade got injured and i do think he made some replacment mistakes but this team has alot to implement their own structures in attack which we did see but needs work, and defence, where Faz shot out leaving a whole.

BS and co arnt the saviours but i do think they will get things back on track but to expect all of EJ's work ingrained on the players to just be gone.

Finally this wasnt a weak team we were facing so was going to be a tough game and them defensive lapses is what cost us. But im gutted not angry tbh. 6N was never going to be a vintage one this year.

Spot on plus who know what previously went on behind closed doors, if I was Borthwick with the forced changes due to injury and not able to make wholesale changes I'd be telling the players to some extend forget what's gone on previously this is your audition if you like prove to me you want to play for England, clearly some players haven't seen it like that and should be doing soo much better but I don't think we can be to harsh on Borthwick this soon or even until we are 18 months 2 years down the line in reality.

 

[Crash Hamster]

It's an obsession in that he's appointed Farrell captain, which means he has to pick him, despite evidence that it's not worked to date. He's committed to something which means he's restricted to continuing to select Smith-Farrell or playing Farrell at 10 and not Smith, which is odd.

SO, yeah, odd obsession IMHO. You don't have to agree, but I can demonstrate my working.

 

[BrokenWing]

Hopefully he named Farrell as captain with the intention of playing him at 10, then injuries changed those intentions but he couldn't really take the captaincy back at that point?

 

[BPM]

It's an obsession in that he's appointed Farrell captain, which means he has to pick him, despite evidence that it's not worked to date. He's committed to something which means he's restricted to continuing to select Smith-Farrell or playing Farrell at 10 and not Smith, which is odd.

SO, yeah, odd obsession IMHO. You don't have to agree, but I can demonstrate my working.

I just don't think you can describe something as an obsession at this point in Borthwick's reign.

I can't stand Farrell and he's the first player I'd like to see dropped, but it would have been extremely naive to think he was going to be left out.

I agree with Matt Dawson - picking him as captain is too much of a commitment, but ultimately, I'm going to judge Borthwick on what he does moving forward.