[2022 Six Nations] Wales vs Italy (19/03/22)

[Welsh Exile]

The problems in Welsh rugby run far deeper than the national team head coach.

The regions have been almost universally crap for over a decade now. The one exception being the Scarlets, who had a good couple of years and were at the time coached by.... the current national coach.

Regarding the U-20s, since the grand slam in 2016, they have been 3rd, 5th, 4th, 4th I think (2020 didn't happen). While they aren't great results, they aren't dire if a few players were making the grade at senior level. But, judging from the regions - and really - leaving aside the monumental fluke that was last year - not making an impact at national level either.

Does anyone from Wales have stats on participation rates? I'd expect they are through the floor.

You're of course right, and I certainly didn't mean to imply that it is all Pivacs fault but the regions have been **** for years and we still won grand slams in 08,12,19 and championships in 2013 and 2020.

The question I ask myself is Pivac getting the most out of our players (whatever your opinion on their ability is) for me the answer is a clear no. Do I believe Scott Robinson could get a lot more out of the top 30/40 players in Wales. Absolutely though the key word in the sentence is believe.

That loss yesterday was largely on him imo but it's just the culmination of a lot of poor stuff we've seen under Pivac for the last 2 years or so. No progression, no style of play, it looked like no one knows what they're meant to be doing for a while now and that loss yesterday was unforgivable, out fought and out prepped by Italy at home. No disrespect to Italy as they were deserved winners but that shouldn't happen and the buck stops with the coach imo.

 

[Amiga500]

Well, the minimum the players can be expected to bring is effort. They are all professional athletes who are coached week-in, week-out.

They shouldn't need their hand's held when it comes to so many things that are then laid at the head coach's door. Does responsibility for being late to the breakdown, or arriving in a poor body position, really rest with the head coach of the senior national team?

Pivac needs to take a lot of stick for the (non) style, the lack of attack patterns and the general disorganisation.

But by fuk the players need to take a shtload of the burden too. Not the first time this tournament they've been badly outfought.


If they are that lax in a match, I wonder how intense their training is. Could be the wafer thin squad (and resultant lack of competition for places) is starting to really bite.

 

[HamJan]

Pivac has to go. He has too. Just get Robinson in tomorrow and give him the SA tour, the Autumn internationals and next years 6N as prep for the WC. If we can't get him in then liquidate the WRU and pretend this rugby thing never existed.

Genuinely pleased for Italy, though. Much deserved. Congratulations.

Why do you think Robinson will leave NZ to take the Wales job when he seems favourite to replace Foster in NZ? Pat Lam has already put his hand up, Jake White would do a Gatlandesque type of job for you.

I think that the quality of Pivac's coaching staff needs closer inspection, particularly Humphrey's and Neil Jenkins, who I believe is the skills coach?!?! It does look like some kind of retirement plan offered by the WRU to former international players. Are they really the best available?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I think Italy got a bigger cheer in the pub before the game than Ireland did in Lansdowne rd yesterday (dead atmosphere, but for another thread).

Everyone is so delighted for them and it means so much for the tournament and their union as the investment in youth systems has really paid off. Potentially ominous for Wales and Scotland when comparing recent u20 results.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Well, the minimum the players can be expected to bring is effort. They are all professional athletes who are coached week-in, week-out.

They shouldn't need their hand's held when it comes to so many things that are then laid at the head coach's door. Does responsibility for being late to the breakdown, or arriving in a poor body position, really rest with the head coach of the senior national team?

Pivac needs to take a lot of stick for the (non) style, the lack of attack patterns and the general disorganisation.

But by fuk the players need to take a shtload of the burden too. Not the first time this tournament they've been badly outfought.


If they are that lax in a match, I wonder how intense their training is. Could be the wafer thin squad (and resultant lack of competition for places) is starting to really bite.

In a ideal world maybe and obviously the players have to take their fair share of the blame but a lot of the things you outline their are exactly what the coach is responsible for. Yes, ideally players shouldn't need to be managed or motivated or prepped before game but turns out they do need to at which is why we have coaches, even at the most elite level.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Why do you think Robinson will leave NZ to take the Wales job when he seems favourite to replace Foster in NZ? Pat Lam has already put his hand up, Jake White would do a Gatlandesque type of job for you.

I think that the quality of Pivac's coaching staff needs closer inspection, particularly Humphrey's and Neil Jenkins, who I believe is the skills coach?!?! It does look like some kind of retirement plan offered by the WRU to former international players. Are they really the best available?

I think he's been told he'd need to get some international experience before getting the AB job.

I think he'd be interested but yeah, who knows?

 

[Welsh Exile]

I haven't seen any players skills develop under Pivac either. None. I've been banging on about it for ages (especially in the front 5) but all we hear from Pivac and co is physicality,
Physicality, physicality. I wouldn't mind as if we looked we did under Gatland but we're **** in all facets and like I said, he's not developed any players skill set at all and we were meant to see a try scoring offloading attacking team under Pivac. Lol.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Well, the minimum the players can be expected to bring is effort. They are all professional athletes who are coached week-in, week-out.

They shouldn't need their hand's held when it comes to so many things that are then laid at the head coach's door. Does responsibility for being late to the breakdown, or arriving in a poor body position, really rest with the head coach of the senior national team?

Pivac needs to take a lot of stick for the (non) style, the lack of attack patterns and the general disorganisation.

But by fuk the players need to take a shtload of the burden too. Not the first time this tournament they've been badly outfought.


If they are that lax in a match, I wonder how intense their training is. Could be the wafer thin squad (and resultant lack of competition for places) is starting to really bite.

This. The head coach of the national side should not be responsible for the basics or even fitness of the players. They should only be responsible for tactics, selection and ensuring everyone knows what they are doing in the team.

 

[Welsh Exile]

This. The head coach of the national side should not be responsible for the basics or even fitness of the players. They should only be responsible for tactics, selection and ensuring everyone knows what they are doing in the team.

You have coaches for all these things, including fitness (or strength and conditioning) so the answer is a bit more nuanced. Players of course have responsibility but there's a reason you have these coaches getting paid very handsomely for what they do, to garner the extra 1%.

If all it was down to what you say (even though "ensuring everyone knows what they're doing" is pretty vague) we would just have captains and no coaches. Captains could just pick the team and lay out a game plan.

 

[Welsh Exile]

If a player is not putting in effort (and you can have a debate bout whether any professional player consciously does this or not) then for me you really have to ask yourself are they fully on board with everything.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Kinda want to make an in depth post here but I don't have the time.

Pivac is totally missing an identity with his team. They look different every week and it's rarely good.

At least Jones has his, now he's trying to make a bunch of kids wet behind the ears be bully boys and it's not working but he clearly sees the potential for it to work.

If I was an England fan I could at least hope against all hope. Wales must be totally dejected after this tournament. If Scotland didn't have balls as soft as rice pudding they'd be Spooners.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

You have coaches for all these things, including fitness (or strength and conditioning) so the answer is a bit more nuanced. Players of course have responsibility but there's a reason you have these coaches getting paid very handsomely for what they do, to garner the extra 1%.

If all it was down to what you say (even though "ensuring everyone knows what they're doing" is pretty vague) we would just have captains and no coaches. Captains could just pick the team and lay out a game plan.

That's sort of what I was getting at, national coaches should be there to build on the basics, not teach them. Basic technique for passing, catching, tackling, rucking etc should need little more than tweaking by national coaches with the focus being on national systems and roles of players unique to the national side. Skills that should be should be forming the baseline should barely need to be touched on by the top level coaches.

As for everyone knowing what they are doing, captains are there to enforce and direct a system but they don't create it. It's for the national coaches to provide that instruction and define everyone's role within the larger gameplan.

When coaching is poor, players who can have strong basics week in week out can struggle (England) but Wales is more a case of quite a few players where the basics aren't even there. That shouldn't be Pivacs responsibility to fix. Arguably Gatland was so successful with Wales because he had some of the strongest Welsh talent in generations and seemed to hammer the basics very very hard. This was enough to beat many NH teams at the time but not the SH.

 

[MikeTheNative]

First of all before I end up going on a Wales rant I have to give it to Italy. As a Welsh fan it's easy to go down the path of how crap things are not taking into account what that win means for Italy. They stayed in the game and fought till the end, win was deserved in the end.

This is the culmination of where Welsh rugby has been heading for a number of years now. Regions getting pumped on a weekly basis, U20s side often getting a beating by their counterparts.
There's been a distinct lack of talent coming through the past few years. If you look at some of the 30 YOs around the Welsh team. Liam Williams, Halfpenny, Jon Davies, Tipruic, Faleteau etc. some of those guys were top tier players at some point of their career (some still are) however you look to the younger players in the squad and while some look decent they don't look like their going to be World Class. Jac Morgan and Taine Basham one of the younger players didn't even get in the squad for that game. Two of the newer players who have looked decent Tompkins + Rowlands are from the English system and not the Welsh. The whole Welsh rugby structure from the academies up needs to be rethought but that's a long term fix, hopefully the WRU finally sorts their crap out but I'm doubtful, it's still run like a bunch of amateurs.

I don't think Wales rugby is in a good position but doesn't absolve Privac from fault either. While they did stumble to a win last 6 nations, their performances were improving and I was happy with how the team seemed to be going forward at the time. However that period is the outlier and Wales have preformed poorly in almost all of the other test series, poor summer series, two poor AIs. The biggest disappointment is how the team seems to improve over a series till the next time they get together they are back to seemingly not knowing what they are doing. Poor selections, the merry go round at centre but worst of all this 6 nations Wales often seem like they don't know what they are doing in attack. Defence is ok, not bad, but the lack of identity in attack is pretty obvious. The 2019 Grand Slam, Wales had quite a limited game of kicking a lot but just keeping the ball till they get a penalty but at least you could recognise that tactic and the players seemed to know what they are doing.
I can't see Privac going to be honest, I expect them to get a bit of a pummelling on a SA tour in the summer but there's not much time to get a new coach in now.

 

[Welsh Exile]

First of all before I end up going on a Wales rant I have to give it to Italy. As a Welsh fan it's easy to go down the path of how crap things are not taking into account what that win means for Italy. They stayed in the game and fought till the end, win was deserved in the end.

This is the culmination of where Welsh rugby has been heading for a number of years now. Regions getting pumped on a weekly basis, U20s side often getting a beating by their counterparts.
There's been a distinct lack of talent coming through the past few years. If you look at some of the 30 YOs around the Welsh team. Liam Williams, Halfpenny, Jon Davies, Tipruic, Faleteau etc. some of those guys were top tier players at some point of their career (some still are) however you look to the younger players in the squad and while some look decent they don't look like their going to be World Class. Jac Morgan and Taine Basham one of the younger players didn't even get in the squad for that game. Two of the newer players who have looked decent Tompkins + Rowlands are from the English system and not the Welsh. The whole Welsh rugby structure from the academies up needs to be rethought but that's a long term fix, hopefully the WRU finally sorts their crap out but I'm doubtful, it's still run like a bunch of amateurs.

I don't think Wales rugby is in a good position but doesn't absolve Privac from fault either. While they did stumble to a win last 6 nations, their performances were improving and I was happy with how the team seemed to be going forward at the time. However that period is the outlier and Wales have preformed poorly in almost all of the other test series, poor summer series, two poor AIs. The biggest disappointment is how the team seems to improve over a series till the next time they get together they are back to seemingly not knowing what they are doing. Poor selections, the merry go round at centre but worst of all this 6 nations Wales often seem like they don't know what they are doing in attack. Defence is ok, not bad, but the lack of identity in attack is pretty obvious. The 2019 Grand Slam, Wales had quite a limited game of kicking a lot but just keeping the ball till they get a penalty but at least you could recognise that tactic and the players seemed to know what they are doing.
I can't see Privac going to be honest, I expect them to get a bit of a pummelling on a SA tour in the summer but there's not much time to get a new coach in now.

I think there's plenty of time tbh. 18 months and a dozen or so internationals as prep. Ample in my book. Cheika and Rassie were appointed with less time and Oz got to a final and SA won it. Not saying we could emulate that by any means but just saying it can be done.

I agree, though, I can't see him going as last years 6N will save him which is understandable. What are we going to do after 3 losses in SA, though? Hope for the best? Goes without saying that I hope we win 1 test out there (which should be the minimum target) but I just don't see it.

I'd be on the blower to Robertson and then Rassie if Robertson was a no go. Hope Pivac and co can turn it around but I see little evidence of that being the case.

 

[Smurfy]

Watching the Welsh u20s against Ireland this year they looked like a pub team in terms of their conditioning. You will always get talent swings at underage level with one side or the other getting a great crop of players in any given year, but it's reasonable to expect that conditioning would be consistent across the years. That, more than the performances of the senior team, would be worrying for me if I was Welsh.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Watching the Welsh u20s against Ireland this year they looked like a pub team in terms of their conditioning. You will always get talent swings at underage level with one side or the other getting a great crop of players in any given year, but it's reasonable to expect that conditioning would be consistent across the years. That, more than the performances of the senior team, would be worrying for me if I was Welsh.

The academy structure doesn't seem fit for purpose at the moment. Look at the difference between the young Irish players who fit seamlessly into regional rugby and look ready for the pro game at 20, while even the more talented young Welsh players seem to get drip fed into the regions and seem to be finally starting games much older age than the Irish.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Watching the Welsh u20s against Ireland this year they looked like a pub team in terms of their conditioning. You will always get talent swings at underage level with one side or the other getting a great crop of players in any given year, but it's reasonable to expect that conditioning would be consistent across the years. That, more than the performances of the senior team, would be worrying for me if I was Welsh.

I'm not really worried about the under 20s so much. We tend to get pumped in the Under 20s except for 2016 or whenever it was and even then in that golden team you're only looking at 2 or 3 making it. If we can look at 2 or 3 potential good players each year from the under 20s that's ******* amazing for us I worry less about producing consistently good, young sides. Not saying it's of no concern but just saying there's other things that are of more concern.

I genuinely worry about the level of coaching at younger grass roots level to be honest. I think coaching in general in Wales is a big issue but then this is another area we find hard to compete with the rich Irish and English private schools. Hard to compete when you have institutions like that that have great facilities and coaches for young aspiring players.

 

[Welsh Exile]

One of the weird things I'm finding about this game (and I have no intention of watching it back so I'm probably wrong) is that when you consider this is probably the worst result, certainly in recent memory and maybe one of our worst results ever, that when you go through individual performances there weren't that many that stank the place out. You had quite a few average to even good individual performances which, for me, is not a good look for a coaching set up. The team performances, however, did totally reek and there hasn't been one all tournament. We look weaker than the sum of our parts when a good coach should make it the other way round.

Pivac ****** me off when he basically said you'll all stop moaning if we get to a semi final. Firstly, way to shoot your ambitions low. We've already got to 2 semi finals, you should be aiming to do one better at the very least but secondly, and more obviously, we won't get past Fiji in the group if we carry on like this let alone a semi ******* final.

 

[Tooting Carmen]

One of the weird things I'm finding about this game (and I have no intention of watching it back so I'm probably wrong) is that when you consider this is probably the worst result, certainly in recent memory and maybe one of our worst results ever, that when you go through individual performances there weren't that many that stank the place out. You had quite a few average to even good individual performances which, for me, is not a good look for a coaching set up. The team performances, however, did totally reek and there hasn't been one all tournament. We look weaker than the sum of our parts when a good coach should make it the other way round.

Pivac ****** me off when he basically said you'll all stop moaning if we get to a semi final. Firstly, way to shoot your ambitions low. We've already got to 2 semi finals, you should be aiming to do one better at the very least but secondly, and more obviously, we won't get past Fiji in the group if we carry on like this let alone a semi ******* final.

That said, there were some really daft and inexcusable errors, such as that player 'forgetting' to tap the ball before trying to score a try.

 

[Welsh Exile]

That said, there were some really daft and inexcusable errors, such as that player 'forgetting' to tap the ball before trying to score a try.

Yeah but Dewi Lake had a really good game in my opinion. But yeah, that was bad. Lol.