[2022 Six Nations] England vs Wales (26/02/22)

[Leonormous Boozer]

Intriguing Interesting **** game.

Adamson impressively was the worst performer but by God Dan Biggar pushed him close. I would like to remind everyone again that Warren Gatland picked three outhalves on show today over Johnny Sexton nine months ago, on outhalf on show today looked international class and he was French, a kid showed potential and two seasoned pros were actively helping their opposition.

England look poor, more talented than Wales but that's not an achievement right now. I don't think you can take too many similarities from 2018, it genuinely feels more like a late 00s England team. I could be wrong here but I don't think anymore success will come Jones' way as England HC. He hasn't adapted to post 2019 rugby, his pack are less dynamic than the top international sides and his backs are one dimensional.

Marcus Smith as man of the match is hard on the lad, he'll get a hell of a lot of hate from rival club and country fans purely because he's getting plaudits that he doesn't deserve. He hasn't asked for this. He had the second best pivot performance from a player in white today, Slade took control of that team and was probably my MOTM. Back to Smith, **** him, overrated English prick.

Wales just lack the talent right now, I don't think there's much left to say. Pivac is doing what he can but that tight five wouldn't cut it in the latter stages of the Champions Cup nevermind international rugby. They'll look very good against Italy, not that that means much but if they were a poorly coached group they'd definitely be vulnerable against them.

If we don't beat England we've had a poor tournament, amy strong cohesive unit should have the better of them right now.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I've ragged on him as much as/more than anyone else but I'll happily admit when a player proves me wrong and Ewels had (very very comfortably) his best game today - both in terms of Country and Club (that I've seen)

If he can maintain this level then EJs (repeated) gamble will have paid off nicely and we'll have a pretty decent stable of locks,
We'll see, though

If he can repeat that against Ire and Fra I may start to get a little enthused. Credit where due and fair play on today, which was good if not stellar, but at the moment he's still subject to the Youngs one in ten principle.

Still think Isiekwe's got a higher ceiling.

 

[Eleutherarch]

Whatever is said about Jones, he has had excellent success in the World Cup with multiple teams. Does that not earn loyalty to some extent with England supporters?

A mate of mine (ex-Gloucester and ex-England U21) was talking about the relative importance of 6N to the World Cup, and his disparity of enthusiasm he feels between them. He told me that he loves the tradition of the 6N, but he would rather see England finish fourth or fifth repeatedly if it meant lifting the WE Cup.

Obviously, this is just the opinion of one man but I'm curious as to whether this sentiment is mirrored amongst England supporters on this forum. If it is, does this not provide an impetus to (love or hate him) get behind a coach that has a real pedigree in the biggest tournament?

I'd be backing Jones in your position (although my mate and I both questioned his approach to out-of-position player placement - I still don't get it).

 

[dullonien]

I'm not too upset after the second half performance, but we've got a lot to work on still. Worryingly many of the issues are the same as they were during Pivac's first campaign in charge, namely we're getting isolated and turned over at the breakdown and our lineout is poor. There were a few discipline and decision making issues today as well which gifted England some soft points.

In terms of top performers, I thought Cuthbert, Tompkins and Tomos Williams were superb behind, while Faletau put in a huge shift up front. Mention as well for Seb Davies off the bench who made Rowlands and Beard appear lethargic in comparison. Nowell will be having nightmares about Cuthbert for a while, because he couldn't cope with his pace or power (is it definitely 2021, not 2013?). The frustrating thing from a Wales pov was that we couldn't capitalise on any of the linebreaks Cuthbert made with support slow to the breakdown time and time again, with Curry and co. getting in over the ball and forcing penalties.

That was Tomos Williams' best performance in a Wales shirt, simply excellent. He bossed the game at times from 9 and some of his running and passing were superb. Lovely flat ball to Adams really caught England out.


We're really struggling with our tight 5 though. Elias was poor again, with our lineout really costing us. I personally think there was a pretty blatant shove by Itoje on Beard in the lead-up to Simmond's try, and I was very surprised that it wasn't reviewed at all, but there we go. Regardless, our lineout still struggles every game. We rely on simple front or middle ball due to incompetent throwing, and England knew that and often managed to exert pressure as a result.

We really need to find some dynamic ball carriers in that tight 5 as well, because they're all just a little meh at the moment. Rowlands worked his socks off, offered himself as a carrier throughout, but rarely got any change out of England's defence, and often found himself going backwards. I thought Beard had made a breakthrough last season, as he was superb at the tail end of the '21 6N and on the Lions tour, but he's not been great this season. Didn't help that Moriarty and Basham had average games as well in the backrow. Both gave away a couple of soft kickable pens and neither really impacted the game like they should.

Feel like a broken record with Biggar. Most of our good attacking play bypasses him with Tomos Williams providing the creative spark today. I just don't see what he really offers and I think we need to give a run of games to someone else at 10. Anscombe looked lively off the bench, but he's still got a lot to prove after his lengthy injury lay off. My preferences aren't even in the squad atm, those being Jarrod Evans and Rhys Patchell (I know he's only just returning from lengthy layoffs). Maybe add Ioan Lloyd to that list as well, but he needs gametime at 10 for Bristol if he's to compete.

 

[TommiG88]

You know when both teams were bad…. There's no confrontation on here. This is very unlike an England Wales thread that I've come to be accustomed with

 

[Wasps92]

Whatever is said about Jones, he has had excellent success in the World Cup with multiple teams. Does that not earn loyalty to some extent with England supporters?

A mate of mine (ex-Gloucester and ex-England U21) was talking about the relative importance of 6N to the World Cup, and his disparity of enthusiasm he feels between them. He told me that he loves the tradition of the 6N, but he would rather see England finish fourth or fifth repeatedly if it meant lifting the WE Cup.

Obviously, this is just the opinion of one man but I'm curious as to whether this sentiment is mirrored amongst England supporters on this forum. If it is, does this not provide an impetus to (love or hate him) get behind a coach that has a real pedigree in the biggest tournament?

I'd be backing Jones in your position (although my mate and I both questioned his approach to out-of-position player placement - I still don't get it).

There is no reason why we shouldn't be taking both competitions very seriously tbf.

I want to win both of them.

 

[Reiser99]

Thing is with a few tweaks, like have a proper winger and letting players gel a bit more, I think we have the potential for a good side.

I don't think Jones is the man to take England further. Since the world cup England have gone back massively and I put that down to mainly the selections and tactics which come from Jones. He's reached his limit and I'm not looking forward to France 23

 

[MikeTheNative]

Nursing a bit of a hangover from yesterday not sure if it was the result of the drink or suffering that poor game. Probably best to describe that as two poor teams and a poor ref to boot. I was happy to see Cuthbert have a decent game though, he get's a lot of crap and much of that is underserved.

 

[Scotty]

So Smith as MOTM, I dont think he had that good of a performance but for me i think the players around him need to get on board with how he plays because he is always moving and waiting for players to run smart lines off him, and by that i mean more than 1 player so it overloads the defenders.

Smith is quick, calm and makes the right decisions but needs other around him to play to his pace.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Whatever is said about Jones, he has had excellent success in the World Cup with multiple teams. Does that not earn loyalty to some extent with England supporters?

A mate of mine (ex-Gloucester and ex-England U21) was talking about the relative importance of 6N to the World Cup, and his disparity of enthusiasm he feels between them. He told me that he loves the tradition of the 6N, but he would rather see England finish fourth or fifth repeatedly if it meant lifting the WE Cup.

Obviously, this is just the opinion of one man but I'm curious as to whether this sentiment is mirrored amongst England supporters on this forum. If it is, does this not provide an impetus to (love or hate him) get behind a coach that has a real pedigree in the biggest tournament?

I'd be backing Jones in your position (although my mate and I both questioned his approach to out-of-position player placement - I still don't get it).

Disagree with your mate totally although it's not an either or equation. Building continuity and a winning mindset from 6Ns, summer tours and AIs is essential if you want a proper crack at Bill.

But if the RWC is the be all and you need to build a new team then what France are doing right now is the model. They identified their players years ago, invested in them, have taken the bumps in the road that all players need to experience and now seem set fair to land a GS this year ahead of giving the RWC a great crack next year. They're not wandering around in a half arsed way 18 months out trying to identify the players / style, that's long been done.

As for Jones at the RWC, he's provided a couple of huge highlights in Japan v the Boks in 15 and our 19 win over the ABs, even if it quickly became obvious that it wasn't a vintage ABs. We blew out in the 19 final, his Aus got v close to Eng in 03 and while we were rightly favourites for that Aus were at home and we were past our best and clinging on. Interesting that the only RWC winning team he's been involved with was the 07 Boks on the kind of immediate impact appointment I've always felt he was best suited for.

When Jones came in we were in a mess after the ignominy of the 15 RWC. All of a sudden we landed a GS and we're on our longest ever winning run. Informed commentators like Greenwood said at the time that Jones was a short sharp shock kind of bloke but doubted his ability for the longer term. I can't disagree with that and even if we regard his first term as a success, post 19 has been poor and I struggle to see him turning it around.

 

[higgik]

So Smith as MOTM, I dont think he had that good of a performance but for me i think the players around him need to get on board with how he plays because he is always moving and waiting for players to run smart lines off him, and by that i mean more than 1 player so it overloads the defenders.

Smith is quick, calm and makes the right decisions but needs other around him to play to his pace.

So true, when playing for Quins, both forwards and backs run lines off him, thought Gleeson, with his RL experience would be doing same. Problem lies with the fact that there is not enough power in backs.
Up to 3 phases, all the players seem to get their role, but after that it seems like players left are not aware of the situation and make poor decisions.

 

[Teddington Logic]

So true, when playing for Quins, both forwards and backs run lines off him, thought Gleeson, with his RL experience would be doing same. Problem lies with the fact that there is not enough power in backs.
Up to 3 phases, all the players seem to get their role, but after that it seems like players left are not aware of the situation and make poor decisions.

cant help but think sending them all to watch a quins training session with Smith involved would be a better use of time in camp than a game of football

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

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Just something a bit more upbeat and positive

 

[BrokenWing]

Smith was just a lazy selection for MoTM, just easy to pick because of the points haul. He's probably in Garth Crook's team of the week too.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Smith was just a lazy selection for MoTM, just easy to pick because of the points haul. He's probably in Garth Crook's team of the week too.

Tbf this week he's been standout so far (until Carberry scores a hat trick later).

Biggar was ****, Russell was ****, Ntamak was decent but not incredible

 

[ncurd]

Tbf this week he's been standout so far (until Carberry scores a hat trick later).

Biggar was ****, Russell was ****, Ntamak was decent but not incredible

Ntamack was a lot better than Smith. 0 trys scored that went through his hands and missed an absolute sitter.

Any suggestion he was standout is way off the mark.

 

[Rinkadink]

(is it definitely 2021, not 2013?).

 

[BrokenWing]

Tbf this week he's been standout so far (until Carberry scores a hat trick later).

Biggar was ****, Russell was ****, Ntamak was decent but not incredible

If you're talking about being MoTM, it doesn't have to be a 10.

If you're talking about team of the week, he isn't even a footballer.

 

[Which Tyler]

Smith's the media darling of the moment - so they want to interview him - which is the single most important consideration when picking MOTM, and he's far from unique in that.

Let's face it, he was poor yesterday - not bad, just poor, and that's absolutely allowed for a young lad in his first dozen or so caps.


My impression of him generally, and mostly at club level, is that he's excellent at seeing things for himself, and very good at seeing things for people on his shoulders - but he's not (yet) a game manager, he's not seeing an opportunity for a player half a pitch away, and he's not manipulating a defence over several phases.
He's got the ability, and confidence to try the high-risk stuff that makes for a highlights reel, gets the crow roaring, and can win a match through inspiring his team; but not currently the man I'd want to win a game through managing the tactics over 80 minutes.
I'm sure he'll get there, and he's got a year and a bit to learn it. I hope he does.

 

[dullonien]

Smith was just a lazy selection for MoTM, just easy to pick because of the points haul. He's probably in Garth Crook's team of the week too.

If there wasn't an obsession with the MotM having to be on the winning side, then I'd say Tomos Williams was the best player on the pitch.