[2021 Six Nations] Wales vs England (27/02/21)

[Welsh Exile]

Do you read or did you just skim though? First off yes I did say that and that's also (unless the water carrier protocol is there) why the try is probably legal. Nothing says the ref has to wait for the defence to set to call time on, Nigel doesn't even say there is.

That said would you expect to be allowed to do that in this situation absolutely it's poor refereeing not an actual illegal try. Same with the HIA try a few years back you'd expect your replacement to be allowed on the pitch before play started. The ref doesn't have to allow it but that doesn't make it extremely poor decision to do so.

Nigel hasnt said the first try should of be discounted he just would never of allowed time on to be called in that situation.


Last week he said it was penalty by may which he explained but then never said under what law. This time he's explained what a knock on is, I can go read the knock on laws and his interpretation of why this play breached those laws. Last week nobody could find what the hell he was talking about.

He did though mate. He said, as I also said to you, that it goes under dangerous play. You just chose stick your fingers in your ears going la la la. That's not my fault.

 

[ncurd]

He did though mate. He said, as I also said to you, that it goes under dangerous play. You just chose stick your fingers in your ears going la la la. That's not my fault.

No he didn't, you did, is your memory shoddy? You couldn't provide a law despite me repeatedly asking one so just grabbed that one. Can you find me a quote where Nigel says it was dangerous play?

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Yeah, ok bud. I'm sure you'd be up in arms being 3 from 3. God, just accept a very poor Welsh team in transition put 40 points on you. Ha.

So you're agreeing with my point then? 3 from 3 is all that matters to the Welsh?

QED.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Ha ha. You keep telling that to yourself mate.

And again, QED.

 

[Welsh Exile]

So you're agreeing with my point then? 3 from 3 is all that matters to the Welsh?

QED.

Nah, it's not the 90s anymore where beating England is the only result that matter but it's still the biggest game of the year. As I'm sure it is for a lot of the English players.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Did Itoje go missing? I seem to remember his name being called an awful lot, 5 penalties for a start! Plus about the same amount of blocked kicks, plus those dominant tackles, carries across the gainline, disrupting the Wales lineout and passing game. A mixed bag from Itoje to be sure, but not missing by any means.

AWJ on the other hand, he... er... er... and then he... er... er... what did he do exactly...?

But what the hell, AWJ has already proven he is the greatest lock in the world many times over. There's no actual evidence for this, but it's a fact.

 

[Welsh Exile]

No he didn't, you did, is your memory shoddy? You couldn't provide a law despite me repeatedly asking one so just grabbed that one. Can you find me a quote where Nigel says it was dangerous play?

Yeah I told you it would go under dangerous play. I honestly thought he confirmed that in the link to the video I posted. But nonetheless, we were talking about interpretation which is clearly not black and white which is why refs are split almost 50/50 on the issue.

Anyway, that was a couple of weeks ago, let's deal with the facts in the here and now. A poor Welsh performance put 40 points on England.

 

[Wichita]

Those 2 times to my knowledge also happen to be the only 2 times. Bearing in mind the instances in question aren't a case where the game is a bit chaotic and things can miss, they are instances where the game has stopped and the ref is in complete control over when it restarts. This ref has now had 2 restarts, one where we didn't even have our replacement HIA on the field and a second restart where he told the captain to speak to the team then called time on the second the captain did that.

These aren't cases of a ref getting it wrong in the heat of the moment but cases where a ref is the sole person on the field deciding when play starts and in FULL control of the game and 2 times back to back he has deliberately and illegally ****** England over. There are no excuses that can be made for this. He is under no pressure to let it go, nothing has happened at all in the game since the call of time off, he is in full control and both time he wilfully ****** us over with no warning. This goes beyond incompetence, this is something he and he alone had control over and he alone allowed to start. He wasn't reacting to a situation, in both cases he was the instigator by calling time on when it was completely inappropriate to do so. At the very least WR need to give him a stern talking to over how your restart time. They adjusted the rules once because of his bullshit, are they going to have to adjust them again because we have a ref wilfully bending the rules to breaking point against us?

On the famous "restart" issue, I suggest you watch the replay and all have a look at the position of the English players when Gauzere restarts the game
- they are not talking together. Actually there is not a single English player talking to another one
- they are mostly gathered under the post, waiting for Biggar to take the 3 points
- they are not at all in a huddle, but aligned under the posts
- None of the 15 English players bar Youngs are looking at the ball. None. They are slowly walking back to their position as if walking thir dog or just looking at their shoes between the posts
- on the contrary, if you look at the Welsh players, they are mostly in position and looking at the ball. As all players should, esp in such an important match.

The reality is they were all waiting for Biggar to go for 3 points. None of them were ready for something else, because in such a position, it was very unlikely Biggar would miss.
You can go at the ref all you want. The reality is that this English team are never ready for the unexpected. Every event in the game that does not go according to the book sends them in a frenzied panic. Other teams would have noticed Gauzere was very finicky on players positions in the ruck, on playing the ball when off your feet or offside positions when your team kicks. The Welsh did indeed adjust. England did not. They very seldom show any adaptative skills at all.

 

[Jakedood]

Yeah, ok bud. I'm sure you'd be up in arms being 3 from 3. God, just accept a very poor Welsh team in transition put 40 points on you. Ha.

I find it quite amusing. You seem to start off tongue in cheek and i quite enjoy the ribbing and baiting, but all too quickly you get your hackles up and very defensive.
I do have a laugh at some of your initial posts mind, my advice is that if you could keep the moral high ground in your teasing, you could have a lot of fun with this. Just a thought!

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Nah, it's not the 90s anymore where beating England is the only result that matter but it's still the biggest game of the year. As I'm sure it is for a lot of the English players.

So it's bigger for England than France, SA or Oz this year? Teams with 10 WC finals and 5 WC ***les between them?

Sure, wtf, English players think Wales is the biggest game of the year. Of course they do.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Did Itoje go missing? I seem to remember his name being called an awful lot, 5 penalties for a start! Plus about the same amount of blocked kicks, plus those dominant tackles, carries across the gainline, disrupting the Wales lineout and passing game. A mixed bag from Itoje to be sure, but not missing by any means.

AWJ on the other hand, he... er... er... and then he... er... er... what did he do exactly...?

But what the hell, AWJ has already proven he is the greatest lock in the world many times over. There's no actual evidence for this, but it's a fact.

Can you bottle those tears for me and pop in the post.

 

[Jakedood]

it's win win. Wales fans wanted to win and England fans wanted to lose so everyone is happy.

Like this! Anyway you do you bud, but i certainly enjoy posts like this

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Anyway, that was a couple of weeks ago, let's deal with the facts in the here and now. A poor Welsh performance put 40 points on England.

Yep. And what does that tell you about England right now?

 

[Welsh Exile]

Like this! Anyway you do you bud, but i certainly enjoy posts like this

You know what. You really are bang on with this and I'm going to apologise now in advance. I'm actually still kinda drunk and being a prick. Hands up.

 

[dullonien]

Having slept on it and then caught up on this thread, it's interesting the completely different attitudes of Welsh and English fans towards their team...

England won the 6N and the ANC last year and this board was replete with English fans calling out their team for not playing well, not looking like they could kick on and beat the world's best, and desperately needing changes to improve despite the wins and the trophies. Before the Wales game, a lot of England posters were even saying that a loss might be beneficial to the team because it would force changes, myself included, as winning was just papering over the cracks.

Wales beat no-one but Georgia and Italy in 2020 and looked poor. This 6N they beat Ireland by 5 points despite Ireland playing with 14 men for 66 minutes, Scotland by 1 point depsite Scotland playing with 14 men for 26 minutes, and then beat England with two, shall we say, controversial tries coming early on, then blowing 17-6 and 24-14 leads against them before a whole bundle of silly, unforced England penalties gifted Wales the win. And Wales fans appear to be deliriously happy, over the moon, a win's a win etc.

What I mean is, if England had performed the way Wales had over the first 3 games of this 6N, England fans would have torn the team apart, talked endlessly about how the wins were papering over the cracks, and that the team was not going to go on to any success playing medicore and relying on other teams' unforced errors to get them through games. But this barely seems to bother Wales fans at all.

Is it just that England fans have bigger fish to fry? Or is it that Wales fans are more content with less?

Don't necessarily think that's true. Wales fans will still be critical, but we're heading in the right direction, whilst winning at the same time. That's a good place to be.

The set piece is improving. The defense has improved tenfold from last year. Pivac is transitioning over to a Hardy, Sheedy, Adams, Halaholo, North, LRZ, Williams backline which is as exciting a backline as I can remember. Still some work to do up front to find replacements for Owens and AWJ in particular.

As for the final quarter of yesyerday's match. Yes England handed Wales 9 easy points, but Wales were also very good in that period. The build-up to Hill's try was very good. LRZ could/should have bagged another score, and we created another couple of opportunities during that time with Sheedy to the fore.

Plenty to work on, and loads and loads of room for improvement, but the coaching team appear to have turned a corner. I'd expect them to start introducing more of the attacking flair the Scarlets were famous for under him which could take us to the next level if they manage it.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

On the famous "restart" issue, I suggest you watch the replay and all have a look at the position of the English players when Gauzere restarts the game
- they are not talking together. Actually there is not a single English player talking to another one
- they are mostly gathered under the post, waiting for Biggar to take the 3 points
- they are not at all in a huddle, but aligned under the posts
- None of the 15 English players bar Youngs are looking at the ball. None. They are slowly walking back to their position as if walking thir dog or just looking at their shoes between the posts

The reality is they were all waiting for Biggar to go for 3 points. None of them were ready for something else, because in such a position, it was very unlikely Biggar would miss.
You can go at the ref all you want. The reality is that this English team are never ready for the unexpected. Every event in the game that does not go according to the book sends them in a frenzied panic. Other teams would have noticed Gauzere was very finicky on players positions in the ruck, on playing the ball when off your feet or offside positions when your team kicks. The Welsh did indeed adjust. England did not. They very seldom show any adaptative skills at all.

Didn't Biggar inform the ref he was going for the posts, which is why England thought he was going for the posts? I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Gauzere even point at the posts to signal a penalty kick.

 

[Jakedood]

You know what. You really are bang on with this and I'm going to apologise now in advance. I'm actually still kinda drunk and being a prick. Hands up.

Haha well we can all be pricks, but being a wind up is certainly the most satisfying isn't it?
PS AWJ is a grandad, tipuric could get manhandled by a 4 year old and you all fornicate with sheep

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Do people still think Itoje should be captain of the lions?

No, never have.

Just thinking about this: if Jones had stood down all his Sarries players, would he have been lambasted for ruining their Lions chances? Most of them were test starters 4 years ago and had a win-heavy 2020, so they would all have expected to be in with a good shout. Just wondering if there was pressure on Eddie from the players or from Gatland for them to play? No idea really, just speculation.

Jones job is to coach England, the Lions are someone else's problem and shouldn't impinge on his decision making at all. I'm sure he would have had discussions with the players about whether they'd still be in the Eng frame though and the inescapable conclusion is that he told them they would be and by extension be able to put their Lions case. That's not looking so smart now and Lions wise very few are enhancing their reputations. And after the 6N they'll just play a few Championship games which isn't great preparation for the Boks.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Can you bottle those tears for me and pop in the post.

Afraid I'm a happy man, I was one of those saying beforehand it'll be better if we lose. It makes changes happen, and changes improve the team, which is what England need, demonstrably. It's like when Wales beat England in the 2015 WC group stage. It contributed to England going out at the group stage and as a result the mediocre Lancaster and his medicore team of 6N bridesmaids was replaced by Eddie Jones, and England won 18 in a row, a Slam, 3 6N ***les in 5 years, the ANC, a whitewash tour in Oz, a first win in SA in almost 20 years, a first win over the ABs in 7 years, got to a WC final for the first time in 12 years etc etc. Mediocre teams losing can have really positive effects on those teams. Mediocre teams winning just leads to mediocre teams losing down the road. See England 2020-21.

 

[ncurd]

Don't necessarily think that's true. Wales fans will still be critical, but we're heading in the right direction, whilst winning at the same time. That's a good place to be.

The set piece is improving. The defense has improved tenfold from last year. Pivac is transitioning over to a Hardy, Sheedy, Adams, Halaholo, North, LRZ, Williams backline which is as exciting a backline as I can remember. Still some work to do up front to find replacements for Owens and AWJ in particular.

As for the final quarter of yesyerday's match. Yes England handed Wales 9 easy points, but Wales were also very good in that period. The build-up to Hill's try was very good. LRZ could/should have bagged another score, and we created another couple of opportunities during that time with Sheedy to the fore.

Plenty to work on, and loads and loads of room for improvement, but the coaching team appear to have turned a corner. I'd expect them to start introducing more of the attacking flair the Scarlets were famous for
under him which could take us to the next level if they manage it.

This is fair but are you though? All three wins could of been losses if not for some fortune. Twice the opposition commiting brain-dead penalties and once with some poor refereeing. Sure you won by more than 14 points in the end but we all know it's a very different game if Wales are playing catch up all game and England aren't. As noted as well England completely lost it at the end end and I agree Wales played well but against more composed opposition?

To me Wales are getting better, I'm just unsure they are getting better at a pace or convincing enough that I'd be happy with if it was England.