[2021 Six Nations] England vs France (13/03/21)

[ncurd]

They don't tend to beat England really. Had a good era late 80s and 90s but it's not common for them to beat us.

In the last decade the winners have always been the home side except for two trips to France for England and the last one of those was 5 years ago.

This is also where stats are useless we know the France side are far better than the one of two years ago.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah, historic stats are useless,
France have won 4 of the last 10, with the last 4 games being 2 - 2

One team is in good form, one team is really really not.
France should be pretty firm favourites this weekend.

 

[Oliver Madden]

France have only won 1 game at Twickenham in the 6 nations era which is appalling really with the teams they had, particularly in the 2000s. If they don't do it this time with our mediocre form and no home crowd then I think a Scotland-style winless run could be in order. When I said France were better all over the pitch I was maybe exaggerating a bit but I think they're far better in the backs than England. Our pack could maybe get the ascendancy but when was the last time we really dominated a good team in the tight and in the set-pieces?. Probably NZ in the semi-final. Last year France easily got parity against our pack. England can win this game but they will have to produce an 80 minute performance to do it.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

France have only won 1 game at Twickenham in the 6 nations era which is appalling really with the teams they had, particularly in the 2000s. If they don't do it this time with our mediocre form and no home crowd then I think a Scotland-style winless run could be in order. When I said France were better all over the pitch I was maybe exaggerating a bit but I think they're far better in the backs than England. Our pack could maybe get the ascendancy but when was the last time we really dominated a good team in the tight and in the set-pieces?. Probably NZ in the semi-final. Last year France easily got parity against our pack. England can win this game but they will have to produce an 80 minute performance to do it.

Then again Scotland hadn't won at Twickers in longer than I have been alive and look what happened... Nothing can understate just how bad England's form has been recently.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I disagree that they are better 1-15. They definitely have a better backline, however do they have one forward who is in the best 2 in his position in the world?

Ollivon for sure. Marchand and Aldritt wouldn't be far off either.

 

[Wichita]

I disagree that they are better 1-15. They definitely have a better backline, however do they have one forward who is in the best 2 in his position in the world? I definitely think they can be got at in set piece. I can hand on heart give you 5 English back rowers who if fit are better than anything the French can muster
Their back are class with world best SH ( if not best player) class at 10 and centres. Wings are are about on par with England with a better FB

England's issue is not been outclassed, but poor selection, favouritism and tactics that make no sense The French look fit, well coached and motivated. A refreshing change from the last decade

I would not discount Marchand, Le Roux and Ollivon to get a place in one of the "best team" selection. Marchand does not do big tackles but he is everywhere and Ollivon in both good at the breakdown and running excellent support lines, something few English backrowers are capable of. As for Le Roux, look at the work rate and the ability in both scrums and mauls.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Ollivon for sure. Marchand and Aldritt wouldn't be far off either.

I'd argue Alldritt's the best 8 on the planet at the moment. Just such a well rounded player and a devastating carrier.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

In the last decade the winners have always been the home side except for two trips to France for England and the last one of those was 5 years ago.

This is also where stats are useless we know the France side are far better than the one of two years ago.

In the autumn we only just squeaked past Fra B- AET. Starters from that game on Sat are something like 10 Eng against 2 from Fra.

Of course I want us to win (despite what I said before Wal) but I'm more excited by the prospect of watching Fra. Definitely a team on the up.

 

[ncurd]

In the autumn we only just squeaked past Fra B- AET. Starters from that game on Sat are something like 10 Eng against 2 from Fra.

Of course I want us to win (despite what I said before Wal) but I'm more excited by the prospect of watching Fra. Definitely a team on the up.

Yup in a strange way I'm looking forward to getting beaten by a good team. I fully expect to lose but at least it doesn't feel like a game we should be winning.

 

[LIONSxv]

Ollivon for sure. Marchand and Aldritt wouldn't be far off either.

Ollivon is better than savea, kane, hooper, pstd, curry, underhill or Watson. That a big jump imo
Aldritt isn't as good as stander imo, let alone anything the saffers have
Marchand?? He is good player but has only just become first choice in this team
We in Northern hemisphere have a habit of overhyping our form players, before they have sustained form over a period of time or actually won anything. We did it with Ireland circa 2018, we did with England 19-20. Its Frances turn in 21 it seems

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Ollivon is better than savea, kane, hooper, pstd, curry, underhill or Watson. That a big jump imo
Aldritt isn't as good as stander imo, let alone anything the saffers have
Marchand?? He is good player but has only just become first choice in this team
We in Northern hemisphere have a habit of overhyping our form players, before they have sustained form over a period of time or actually won anything. We did it with Ireland circa 2018, we did with England 19-20. Its Frances turn in 21 it seems

Ollivon is a blindside/8. Him, Aldritt and Doris are probably the best the 6n have to offer there, Stander, Faletau and Vunipola aren't really bringing as much as they are since the world cup or longer. So you've got Pstd, Vermeulan, Read and Savea as competition in the SH and I'm definitely taking Ollivon over Read and Vermeulan at the very least.

Marchand is definitely in the conversation, standard of hookers worldwide is far from great and he's pivotal for Toulouse and France, it's a matter of preference between him and the English hookers in my opinion.

 

[LIONSxv]

Ollivon is better than savea, kane, hooper, pstd, curry, underhill or Watson. That a big jump imo
Aldritt isn't as good as stander imo, let alone anything the saffers have
Marchand?? He is good player but has only just become first choice in this team
We in Northern hemisphere have a habit of overhyping our form players, before they have sustained form over a period of time or actually won anything. We did it with Ireland circa 2018, we did with England 19-20. Its Frances turn in 21 it seems

Ollivon plays open side for France doesn't he? Great line out option and good support runner. I don't see anything special at his bread and butter which is tackling, rucks and turnovers
If Marchand is considered as world class then by this definition LCD would also fall into category? BTW I don't think either are world class operator's. Jamie George circa 2019/20 was due to his sarries and England form over a 3/4 year period

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Ollivon plays open side for France doesn't he? Great line out option and good support runner. I don't see anything special at his bread and butter which is tackling, rucks and turnovers
If Marchand is considered as world class then by this definition LCD would also fall into category? BTW I don't think either are world class operator's. Jamie George circa 2019/20 was due to his sarries and England form over a 3/4 year period

I'm pretty sure that France play left and right flankers and if they don't the 7 is the blindside like SA. Jelonch and Cretin are both closer to traditional 7s in the French side. I think Ollivon is such a consistent and impactful player, he has 6 tries in his last ten internationals, and does everything to a very high level, he reminds me of a peak Heaslip who could do anything you could ask of a backrow to a very high level as well and allowed coaches to pick whatever type of players you want along with him in the knowledge he'd compliment them.

I think LCD and Marchand are the best in Europe yeah. Wasn't too impressed by the standard in the Tri nations either. Weak position worldwide at the moment, a few guys who could possibly step into the hypothetical world XV shirt.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I'd argue Alldritt's the best 8 on the planet at the moment. Just such a well rounded player and a devastating carrier.

I haven't watched him closely enough to be honest, I don't know if I've ever watched La Rochelle and Ihes not someone I look out for that much. I included him because what I do notice is generally Impressive and there's a bit of hype surrounding him. I'll lay closer attention this weekend.

 

[LIONSxv]

I'm pretty sure that France play left and right flankers and if they don't the 7 is the blindside like SA. Jelonch and Cretin are both closer to traditional 7s in the French side. I think Ollivon is such a consistent and impactful player, he has 6 tries in his last ten internationals, and does everything to a very high level, he reminds me of a peak Heaslip who could do anything you could ask of a backrow to a very high level as well and allowed coaches to pick whatever type of players you want along with him in the knowledge he'd compliment them.

I think LCD and Marchand are the best in Europe yeah. Wasn't too impressed by the standard in the Tri nations either. Weak position worldwide at the moment, a few guys who could possibly step into the hypothetical world XV shirt.

I think Ollivan is a very useful player, great running lines and line out option. But just look at the competition for flanker for just the Lions, this is without looking at s hemisphere. For me a flanker needs to do his nuts, bolts exceptionally well first. Support lines and line out options are a distinct second
Like you, I haven't sat and specifically paid much attention to Aldritt. As I'm usually admiring the french half backs. He looks a solid carrier with great work ethic, I thought of him as a smaller version of Vermulan. I haven't as yet, seen him do anything to make me pay attention to him, which I suppose is telling. Although the N8 isn't a position of strength of any nation currenly

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think Ollivan is a very useful player, great running lines and line out option. But just look at the competition for flanker for just the Lions, this is without looking at s hemisphere. For me a flanker needs to do his nuts, bolts exceptionally well first. Support lines and line out options are a distinct second
Like you, I haven't sat and specifically paid much attention to Aldritt. As I'm usually admiring the french half backs. He looks a solid carrier with great work ethic, I thought of him as a smaller version of Vermulan. I haven't as yet, seen him do anything to make me pay attention to him, which I suppose is telling. Although the N8 isn't a position of strength of any nation currenly

You're all missing the single most important question regarding a flanker, are they a lineout option? You can completely forget it if they aren't up there with the locks in the lineout. #Croftwasthebestlflankereva

 

[LIONSxv]

You're all missing the single most important question regarding a flanker, are they a lineout option? You can completely forget it if they aren't up there with the locks in the lineout. #Croftwasthebestlflankereva

Tom Croft was super, without injury possibly one the best we have produced.
However by your definition you are ruling out smaller flankers such as pocock, hooper, g Smith, thierry dusautoir, Sean O'brien. All of whom bring so much more in different ways

 

[big ginger 8]

You're all missing the single most important question regarding a flanker, are they a lineout option? You can completely forget it if they aren't up there with the locks in the lineout. #Croftwasthebestlflankereva

I know this has become a meme for English fans because of Jones but for the French it absolutely is important. If you look through their teams over the last 10+ years their best lineout options are backrows. Locks are primarily selected for their size it seems leaving it to the likes of Bonnaire, Harinordoquy and Ollivon to be primary lineout options.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Youngs, Fazlet, Ford and Binny have more caps than the entire French starting XV.

The only French starters with more than 30 caps are Fickou with 60 and Dulin with 33. We only have 4 with less than 30.

Starting line ups are 741 v 330. Differential would have been even more stark if Daly and George had kept their places.

Despite the cap differences the average ages are fairly similar - just over 26 for Fra and nearly 27.5 for Eng.

Not sure what any of that proves except perhaps that the French finally did something about it when they realised the same old wasn't working.

 

[Wichita]

Tom Croft was super, without injury possibly one the best we have produced.
However by your definition you are ruling out smaller flankers such as pocock, hooper, g Smith, thierry dusautoir, Sean O'brien. All of whom bring so much more in different ways

You're all missing the single most important question regarding a flanker, are they a lineout option? You can completely forget it if they aren't up there with the locks in the lineout. #Croftwasthebestlflankereva

Just a quick note, the French backrow is noticeably larger than the English one, so more options at the lineout but potentially less impact at the breakdown.
On the other hand, the French locks are the bulkiest there are in France at the moment, but probably less mobile than their English Counterparts. Balance, balance...