[2021 Six Nations] England vs France (13/03/21)

[ncurd]

Snip

I'll just add players less likely to push the laws to the limits like they do today. I don't think 30 years ago Biggar tries what he did two weeks ago.

We know forward passes and knock ons probably got missed (the greatest try of all time is a prime example).

Last weekend was the exception rather than the rule these days certainly can't remember the last time a ref made two howlers that gave such an advantage to the opposition. It's also when you boil down to absolute shocking decisions only occur in 1-2 matches a year at international level.

 

[bushytop]

It's so nice being in the position we're in now. Can just chill out and enjoy some great rugby. It's win-win for Wales today. Win and the Jam Slam is on. Lose, and England could get the wooden spoon so every cloud and all that.

I'm actually feeling a little anxious, just my natural Welsh neurosis I assume but I have a nasty feeling we might be on the wrong end of the ref this afternoon... probably still wouldn't be enough for Italy in fairness but wrong thread really anyways.

As far as this game goes, I just feel that with their backs against the wall... and all of their Sarries boys now up to speed (more or less) England are gonna turn up big today. England by 5.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I'll just add players less likely to push the laws to the limits like they do today. I don't think 30 years ago Biggar tries what he did two weeks ago.

We know forward passes and knock ons probably got missed (the greatest try of all time is a prime example).

Last weekend was the exception rather than the rule these days certainly can't remember the last time a ref made two howlers that gave such an advantage to the opposition. It's also when you boil down to absolute shocking decisions only occur in 1-2 matches a year at international level.

There were shocking ones in both games of the last round, had Ireland v Italy been in any way close a lot of people would be talking about Henderson's try being disallowed too. I don't think reffing is terrible at the top normally but since Covid it's been awful. I don't know if it's coincidence, less opportunity to train is having an effect or its just that I'm generally sober watching now but I'd been enjoying rugby far less up until the last few weeks and the reffing has played a big part!

 

[MarkyH]

I've never been less excited

 

[TommiG88]

I've never been less excited

I actually think the mixture of things has taken away the magic.
I feel less excited with no crowds. It takes away a certain element to the game. I will still try and enjoy the game though. Team selection was a step in the right direction.

 

[bushytop]

The vibe is real in here...

 

[MarkyH]

I actually think the mixture of things has taken away the magic.
I feel less excited with no crowds. It takes away a certain element to the game. I will still try and enjoy the game though. Team selection was a step in the right direction.

I think for me it's my complete loss of faith in EJ. I've always, well, kind of understood and supported his selections. And how we try to play but I just find watching us play, our tactics and our previous selections an absolute bore. And I love England Rugby. The changes are a step, but the faith in players mentioned a bazillion times in the threads that are still starting is beyond me.

You're right tho chap, no crowds definitely take away the magic.

Just wish there was more incentive to players out the squad. Yes, it should be harder to lose the shirt, but when you've held a shirt and been out of form for so long and given players that are EC winners no chances at all is bonkers.

Morning rant! And yes, its a step in the right direction

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

I'm actually pretty confident of an England win today. (I know, optimism in an England thread is disgusting and I should be ashamed of myself. ) France haven't played in almost a month, and looked very much in second gear when they did play. England have played better each game this tournament (discipline aside, obviously) and a lot of the undercooked Sarries etc should be better for all the run outs. So discipline is the key (and a decent ref that doesn't give the opposition a 2-try head start, naturally); get it right, and we should be fine. I should think England will be really p****d after Gauzeregate and play accordingly. And we always play better when we're not under pressure, and with the ***le gone, they can relax and enjoy themselves and play spoiler. Lots of reasons to be optimistic! Just sad that I won't be able to watch it live.

And if England win today, and France don't get a losing bonus point, that's pretty much the ***le in the bag for Wales as they'll have 3 bonus points going into the final round and will need only a losing bonus point in Paris to take the ***le. Then we can all laugh at them because they get to keep the hopelessly confused Pivac as coach, and we all get to claim they only sneaked the ***le because they were gifted a bonus point by Gauzere.

Stepping back a little to look at the wider picture, a number of posters on here, myself included, were thinking a loss to Wales would be better than a win because it would create some changes. Eddie duly delivered that loss and has made some changes, so we got what we wanted. Tbf, having only a smaller-than-usual squad foisted upon him, there were never going to be a massive amount of changes, and the summer tours will be where he really experiments, so it's a decent start. Plus, think of it this way: Lawrence and Odogwu and all those promising young players that we have have got no chance now of getting selected by the Lions and therefore being beasted by Gatland's training regimes and broken on the Boks' defence playing Warrenball. Instead of being physical wrecks for 2022-23, they'll be fit and firing and ready to win us the World Cup. Eddie's got a plan!

 

[TommiG88]

I'm actually pretty confident of an England win today. (I know, optimism in an England thread is disgusting and I should be ashamed of myself. ) France haven't played in almost a month, and looked very much in second gear when they did play. England have played better each game this tournament (discipline aside, obviously) and a lot of the undercooked Sarries etc should be better for all the run outs. So discipline is the key (and a decent ref that doesn't give the opposition a 2-try head start, naturally); get it right, and we should be fine. I should think England will be really p****d after Gauzeregate and play accordingly. And we always play better when we're not under pressure, and with the ***le gone, they can relax and enjoy themselves and play spoiler. Lots of reasons to be optimistic! Just sad that I won't be able to watch it live.

And if England win today, and France don't get a losing bonus point, that's pretty much the ***le in the bag for Wales as they'll have 3 bonus points going into the final round and will need only a losing bonus point in Paris to take the ***le. Then we can all laugh at them because they get to keep the hopelessly confused Pivac as coach, and we all get to claim they only sneaked the ***le because they were gifted a bonus point by Gauzere.

Stepping back a little to look at the wider picture, a number of posters on here, myself included, were thinking a loss to Wales would be better than a win because it would create some changes. Eddie duly delivered that loss and has made some changes, so we got what we wanted. Tbf, having only a smaller-than-usual squad foisted upon him, there were never going to be a massive amount of changes, and the summer tours will be where he really experiments, so it's a decent start. Plus, think of it this way: Lawrence and Odogwu and all those promising young players that we have have got no chance now of getting selected by the Lions and therefore being beasted by Gatland's training regimes and broken on the Boks' defence playing Warrenball. Instead of being physical wrecks for 2022-23, they'll be fit and firing and ready to win us the World Cup. Eddie's got a plan!

There's optimism, and then there's delusional. Trying to decide which category this post falls into

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

There's optimism, and then there's delusional. Trying to decide which category this post falls into

Probably best to decide after today.

In fact, make that after our 2023 World Cup triumph following back-to-back 6N grand slams in 22 and 23.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

It's so nice being in the position we're in now. Can just chill out and enjoy some great rugby. It's win-win for Wales today. Win and the Jam Slam is on. Lose, and England could get the wooden spoon so every cloud and all that.

I dream of England getting the wooden spoon in a Lions year...

Actually, wouldn't England getting the wooden spoon require Wales to lose to Italy heavily?

 

[bushytop]

Probably best to decide after today.

In fact, make that after our 2023 World Cup triumph following back-to-back 6N grand slams in 22 and 23.

I dream of England getting the wooden spoon in a Lions year...

Actually, wouldn't England getting the wooden spoon require Wales to lose to Italy heavily?

 

[Reiser99]

England have played better each game this tournament (discipline aside, obviously) and a lot of the undercooked Sarries etc should be better for all the run outs.

Issue for me is that while England have played better, it was such a low bench mark with the opening game that pretty much any performance was going to be an improvement. I don't think England have played well in any game, apart from a few moments against Wales. They continue to look clueless when plan A doesn't work and have absolutely no adaptability. On top allowing players to find form in an international tournament is simply unacceptable. I don't think it was intentional, I reckon EJ selected the Sarries players thinking their form wouldn't be too bad and they could get by against Scotland and Italy, then only realised how much he'd screwed himself afterwards. With the restrictions on the squad he has limited opportunities to change the squad and so, as I've said earlier, he's giving them the rest of the tournament to show what they can do and he can make real changes in the summer (my faint hope).

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

View attachment 9792

Ah, some joy in the thread at last.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Issue for me is that while England have played better, it was such a low bench mark with the opening game that pretty much any performance was going to be an improvement. I don't think England have played well in any game, apart from a few moments against Wales. They continue to look clueless when plan A doesn't work and have absolutely no adaptability. On top allowing players to find form in an international tournament is simply unacceptable. I don't think it was intentional, I reckon EJ selected the Sarries players thinking their form wouldn't be too bad and they could get by against Scotland and Italy, then only realised how much he'd screwed himself afterwards. With the restrictions on the squad he has limited opportunities to change the squad and so, as I've said earlier, he's giving them the rest of the tournament to show what they can do and he can make real changes in the summer (my faint hope).

I don't think the bar is that low, I don't really buy that England are that bad of a side. There's a whole lot of talent there and its won a whole lot of games and trophies. And EJ, for all the bile he gets on here, is a proven coach who has won pretty much everything there is to win in the international game. Against Scotland we were awful, completely outplayed, everyone out of form, discipline terrible, no ball... and we lost by only 5. That says something to me (and no, not that Scotland are poor, coz they ain't). Against Italy we clearly tried to keep the ball in hand and were a bit all over the place, but we still scored 6 tries and 40+. Against Wales, our discipline was again poor and the ref spotted them a couple of extremely questionable tries to give them a 17-6 lead,, yet we still got back to 24-24 against the Grand Slam champions-elect with some frankly excellent attacking play. We then blew it with our discipline, but Wales are the greatest side ever to play the game led by the greatest player ever to play the game... er, sorry, got sidetracked. I'm just trying to say that I don't think we're that far off. A few improvements here and there and a couple of changes of personnel and we should be back to winning ways.

 

[Jashay]

I reckon it's probably about even. I think if Faz and Binny can carry the improvements we saw in the Wales game over to this game we're in with a good shot. If they go back to Scotland form we're toast.

I like the changes. LCD is playing better than George at the moment, Malins is a bit of an unknown but can't be worse than Daly. Ewels isn't highly regarded, but he's generally decent and I think of him as reliable. And our bench gives us actual options in the backs.

It has the potential to be a really good game

 

[Reiser99]

I don't think the bar is that low, I don't really buy that England are that bad of a side. There's a whole lot of talent there and its won a whole lot of games and trophies. And EJ, for all the bile he gets on here, is a proven coach who has won pretty much everything there is to win in the international game. Against Scotland we were awful, completely outplayed, everyone out of form, discipline terrible, no ball... and we lost by only 5. That says something to me (and no, not that Scotland are poor, coz they ain't). Against Italy we clearly tried to keep the ball in hand and were a bit all over the place, but we still scored 6 tries and 40+. Against Wales, our discipline was again poor and the ref spotted them a couple of extremely questionable tries to give them a 17-6 lead,, yet we still got back to 24-24 against the Grand Slam champions-elect with some frankly excellent attacking play. We then blew it with our discipline, but Wales are the greatest side ever to play the game led by the greatest player ever to play the game... er, sorry, got sidetracked. I'm just trying to say that I don't think we're that far off. A few improvements here and there and a couple of changes of personnel and we should be back to winning ways.

I kinda agree, though even though the likes of Faz and Binny played better against Wales, it still wasn't great personally. Scotland game by 5 was more about Scotland than England.

For me the keys issues are the ones that have already been discussed and EJ shows no signs of fixing.
1) Problems with 8, 9, 10 & 12. (For me Ford isn't a problem at 10, it's trying to fit Farrell in that causes the problems)
2) Farrell isn't a good captain.
3) Discipline (granted this is more on the players, but he still has power over selections)
4) The team's complete in ability to adapt when the game doesn't go to plan and keep sticking to plan A. (This links to Farrell as captain, but seems to be a wider issue of EJ dropping players who go off script)

I think you're right a few changes and many of these issues could be solved, but these issues are the same ones that EJ seems to completely ignore.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Same people on here who were optimistic against Scotland and Wales are still optimistic against the french??

Right, back to the asylum for you.

 

[Jimbo]

Is it wrong that part of me doesn't want England to win, I can see that if England do win all else will be fortgotton as England have beaten and in form over night world class French team and the same cracks will be paper over and ignored, I never want to see Eng beat especially at Twickers but the Scotts have already stormed it, doesn't get much worse.

 

[Which Tyler]

I had acouple of "friendly" matches under Robinson when I wanted a loss to kick-start change; but that's it.

Eddie's nadir isn't yet descending to the depths of Robbi's peak, and no-way I'd ever want us to lose a match that actually matters.

That said, different strokes for different folks.