[2021 Six Nations] England Squad

[higgik]

Odogwu would need to show that his fitness is up to scratch. Just watch the Wibble Rugby video on YouTube.

Lawrence possibly, but the best like for like would be Marchant, who has been called up.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Odogwu would need to show that his fitness is up to scratch. Just watch the Wibble Rugby video on YouTube.

Lawrence possibly, but the best like for like would be Marchant, who has been called up.

Why would he when jones started Mako, George, Itoje, Farrell and Daly who were in a worse situation?

One rule for the chosen useless ones and another rule for players with actual potential.

 

[Jakedood]

Why would he when jones started Mako, George, Itoje, Farrell and Daly who were in a worse situation?

One rule for the chosen useless ones and another rule for players with actual potential.

I think he means physical fitness rather than match fitness

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Well, well. Acknowledgement that we were playing too much by rote and that the team's brains were fried with too many coaching messages going into Sco. Now being more licence to play what's in front of them. Genuinely the most encouraging thing I've heard coming out of the camp in a while. Let's see if they can back it up v Ire.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...yer-power-freed-us-to-do-it-our-way-cx5mrd7bx

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Well, well. Acknowledgement that we were playing too much by rote and that the team's brains were fried with too many coaching messages going into Sco. Now being more licence to play what's in front of them. Genuinely the most encouraging thing I've heard coming out of the camp in a while. Let's see if they can back it up v Ire.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...yer-power-freed-us-to-do-it-our-way-cx5mrd7bx

But I thought Jones said that he couldn't use Exeter players because they played to a script too much and not enough heads up rugby.
I think everything that comes out of the Eddie Jones PR machine is BS.

 

[Which Tyler]

But I thought Jones said that he couldn't use Exeter players because they played to a script too much and not enough heads up rugby.
I think everything that comes out of the Eddie Jones PR machine is BS.

Closer to 90% (and even then, there's reason behind it)

A good proportion of what Eddie says is to distract attention from players and onto himself
A good proportion of what Eddie says is to throw a bomb and give the media something to speculate on and garner hits
A good proportion of what Eddie says is to distract and mislead opponents
A good proportion of what Eddie says is to motivate his own players; in the way that he wants
Sometimes though, he'll let slip exactly what he means - and those moments are gold; but can be difficult to pick in advance - benefit of hindsight, and paying attention to what he says, what he's said previously, and what he's actually done helps, but even that isn't perfect.

The big ones for Eddie are all about work rate and fitness (specifically, the high-tempo fitness he's after) - so when he says that Ben Youngs is fat; or that Odugwu or Mercer are lazy - he doesn't mean that in the way most of us would think, but he does mean it in terms of what he specifically is looking for - he's looking for those players to fight like hell to get back in alignment as quickly as they possibly can, and to do that EVERY time they fall out of alignment, and have the energy levels to do that for 100 minutes. He's looking at "bounce time" he's looking at running back into the line. Most coaches and players happy for you to wonder back into the line after making a telling contribution, and conserve a little energy. I happen to thin that this is the biggest reason why new players are introduced gradually, it's extremely demanding, an the whole system potentially falls apart if just 1-2 pieces aren't where they need to be.

In 2018 he told us all in advance that he wanted the players to start each match with the depleted energy levels - and everyone was up in arms when we played as if we our energy levels were too low.
In 2020 he told us all that he wanted to avoid a confidence sapping run of bad results; form can go hang, it's results that matter - and everyone was up in arms that we weren't playing with good form but still won 8 from 9, with 2 pieces of silverware.
In 2021 he told us all that he wasn't looking to work on the attack yet - and everyone was up in arms that we weren't trying to attack.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

But I thought Jones said that he couldn't use Exeter players because they played to a script too much and not enough heads up rugby.
I think everything that comes out of the Eddie Jones PR machine is BS.

Don't disagree with you.

If we take the article at face value......

......Jones is a highly experienced coach, he just shouldn't be misjudging to the degree implied

.......Was change coach or player driven?

Ire is going to be very interesting.

 

[ncurd]

Scotland loss was 'wake-up call' - May

England's opening-day Six Nations humbling by Scotland acted as a "line in the sand" and a "wake-up call", according to wing Jonny May.

www.bbc.com

Why did it take 5 weeks to wake up then?

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Scotland loss was 'wake-up call' - May

England's opening-day Six Nations humbling by Scotland acted as a "line in the sand" and a "wake-up call", according to wing Jonny May.

www.bbc.com

Why did it take 5 weeks to wake up then?

Because Jonny has a touch of the ol' scatterbrains.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Scotland loss was 'wake-up call' - May

England's opening-day Six Nations humbling by Scotland acted as a "line in the sand" and a "wake-up call", according to wing Jonny May.

www.bbc.com

Why did it take 5 weeks to wake up then?

And why were they asleep in the first place?

Is it change of fly half?

Has our layering build up to the next RWC been accelerated / ditched?

I hope someone knows what's going on because I don't. I'm going to try to to give up second guessing strategy and just take one match at a time.

@WT. Your hypothesis on gradual introduction / whole system falling part if the odd piece is out of place is interesting - any system is only as strong as its weakest link. I guess I'm left to wonder though whether a talent like LRZ would have been able to break through into this Eng team. Jones seems to want oven ready without providing the oven (or something like that).

 

[Jakedood]

And why were they asleep in the first place?

Is it change of fly half?

Has our layering build up to the next RWC been accelerated / ditched?

I hope someone knows what's going on because I don't. I'm going to try to to give up second guessing strategy and just take one match at a time.

@WT. Your hypothesis on gradual introduction / whole system falling part if the odd piece is out of place is interesting - any system is only as strong as its weakest link. I guess I'm left to wonder though whether a talent like LRZ would have been able to break through into this Eng team. Jones seems to want oven ready without providing the oven (or something like that).

He may not have broken into Wales team barr all the injuries, but yeah for sure, and sometimes I think its necessary whereas others thrive on pressure. Got to gauge which is which, because a player who isnt ready may never fully recover from it
But he did throw Curry in the deep end, rather than making him a bench player earning his stripes, so maybe its mostly to do with the attitude he sees, the mental fortitude etc?
This whole debate will have a lot more meaning come the autumn nations where we'll see if the players picked and used on summer tour (fingers crossed it goes ahead) can show enough to break into the starting team by the end of the year

 

[klitarris]

The big ones for Eddie are all about work rate and fitness (specifically, the high-tempo fitness he's after) - so when he says that Ben Youngs is fat; or that Odugwu or Mercer are lazy - he doesn't mean that in the way most of us would think, but he does mean it in terms of what he specifically is looking for - he's looking for those players to fight like hell to get back in alignment as quickly as they possibly can, and to do that EVERY time they fall out of alignment, and have the energy levels to do that for 100 minutes. He's looking at "bounce time" he's looking at running back into the line. Most coaches and players happy for you to wonder back into the line after making a telling contribution, and conserve a little energy. I happen to thin that this is the biggest reason why new players are introduced gradually, it's extremely demanding, an the whole system potentially falls apart if just 1-2 pieces aren't where they need to be.

Interestingly, against France I noticed several times that LCD wasn't showing the urgency to get back up and into the line as some of the others. He undoubtedly brings a lot to the side, making some great carries and brilliant chop tackles, but I wonder if he has ever come under the 'lazy' tag in Jones' head, potentially explaining why he has had more game time.

 

[klitarris]

Closer to 90% (and even then, there's reason behind it)

A good proportion of what Eddie says is to distract attention from players and onto himself
A good proportion of what Eddie says is to throw a bomb and give the media something to speculate on and garner hits
A good proportion of what Eddie says is to distract and mislead opponents
A good proportion of what Eddie says is to motivate his own players; in the way that he wants
Sometimes though, he'll let slip exactly what he means - and those moments are gold; but can be difficult to pick in advance - benefit of hindsight, and paying attention to what he says, what he's said previously, and what he's actually done helps, but even that isn't perfect.

I'd go further, and say that it isn't just what Eddie says but anything anyone in the camp says. My guess is that May's comments are exactly what he agreed with Eddie that he'd say, for one of the reasons you state.

 

[BPM]

It's interesting to think about who will go on the Lions tour/what implications that has for England:

Nailed on:
Curry: We've already got depth at 7
Itoje: We've already got depth at lock
Sinckler: Stuart is pretty established as 2nd choice tighthead - will be good to look beyond that, but wouldn't put it past EJ to just recall Cole

Probable:
Farrell: Crap form, but has a good reputation as an international and a Lion. If he goes I wouldn't put it past EJ to just recall Joseph and go Ford/Slade/Joseph
Slade: Maybe? Covers 13/12/10/15 so decent squad player, but not sure if he's a Gatland 13
Binny: Probably - I wouldn't be surprised to see him go on reputation, as Gatland loves picking players on reputation, but there's better 8s in the home nations/Ireland
Watson: Probably - and would be good to cap some new wingers
Youngs: Leaning towards probable, same as Binny: Gatland loves reputation. Would love to see us have a summer of Robson/Randall/Mitchell
George: Same as Binny/Farrell

Possible:
Underhill: Missing the 6N will hurt him. IMO he should be nailed on, but wouldn't be surprised to see him miss out as there's a lot of talent in the backrow in the 6N atm
Genge: Lions tours love a character, and he is one. I rate him highly but his international performances don't match up to his potential, IMO
LCD: IMO he should be a nailed on/high probably but George has the better reputation of the two, despite the lower form
Lawes: Same as Underhill: Missing the 6N doesn't help. He's got money in the bank, and the ability to cover 4/6, but there's a lot of locks/6s knocking around

Potential:
Sam Simmonds? Would Gatland take him despite EJs snubs?

I agree on most of this, although I'd imagine Ford is at least a possible and I'd put LCD in the probable category given that the Irish hookers aren't much cop, the Scottish ones are hit and miss and any Welsh hooker other than Owens is nowhere near good enough. I strongly suspect the hookers will be George, Owens and LCD.

I can't see Simmonds going. If Eddie is hesitant based upon size/physicality, I'd be amazed if Gatland (who loves big players) will think differently.

Assuming the Lions tour goes ahead and those you've highlighted as nailed-on/probable are selected, it's probably a good thing for England. It will force us to give some game time to players in positions where the incumbents need to be challenged.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I agree on most of this, although I'd imagine Ford is at least a possible and I'd put LCD in the probable category given that the Irish hookers aren't much cop, the Scottish ones are hit and miss and any Welsh hooker other than Owens is nowhere near good enough. I strongly suspect the hookers will be George, Owens and LCD.

I can't see Simmonds going. If Eddie is hesitant based upon size/physicality, I'd be amazed if Gatland (who loves big players) will think differently.

Assuming the Lions tour goes ahead and those you've highlighted as nailed-on/probable are selected, it's probably a good thing for England. It will force us to give some game time to players in positions where the incumbents need to be challenged.

I reckon Gatland will take a very close look at Marler. Less sure he'll like the idea of Mako against the Boks although I suspect he'll make the squad. Getting a proper look at Genge / Obano / whoever in the summer would be great.

I'd be surprised if Lawes doesn't make the Lions. Maybe not as an immediate starter but may appeal to Gatland as part of a bomb squad counter.

Launch / Underhill may lose out due to injury but I'd have taken fit versions of both.

Wilson a possible wild card? Big physical bloke and this is the Boks. Must be in the mix if he goes well v Ire.

 

[BPM]

Agreed on all of that TBH.

If the tour is in the UK as has been mooted, Marler would be an excellent shout (he might not go otherwise). He's in his best form in some time and I'd regard him as the best loosehead in the NH right now (not just cos he's my avatar).

Wilson could be a contender too. He's a very underrated player and there's a reason he's a a favourite of Eddie's.

 

[klitarris]

Agreed on all of that TBH.

If the tour is in the UK as has been mooted, Marler would be an excellent shout (he might not go otherwise). He's in his best form in some time and I'd regard him as the best loosehead in the NH right now (not just cos he's my avatar).

Wilson could be a contender too. He's a very underrated player and there's a reason he's a a favourite of Eddie's.

I'd be surprised to see Wilson go. Not that I don't rate him, but flanker (and number 8 to an extent) is one position where there is a glut of great players in UK & Ireland. I'd expect him to be a late injury replacement at best.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah, I'd be very surprised to see Wilson named - solely, as you say, because there's such an insane amount of talented backrowers around atm.
If it were a proper tour, in SA, he's definitely the kind of guy you'd want in your dirt road side, though - plays all across the backrow, good leader and hard as nails, not going to be intimidated by the local sides wanted to knock lumps out of the tourists.

 

[BPM]

I'm not saying Wilson will go - just agreeing with Old Hooker touting him as an outside bet.

Wilson is epitomised by the away game against Ireland that seemed to be a landmark result at the time (they were riding very high at that point). In a proper blood and thunder game where we were really taking it to Ireland, Wilson was visibly one of the most vocal leaders. I'm pretty sure he was saying something like 'lads, this is what we live for'. Properly loving it. He's a great character to have around the England squad nevermind the Lions.

 

[TheSaffycen]

I could see Wilson going, good leader and a versatile player. Not taking underhill would be a mistake imo.

Apart from Faletau which 8s are going do you think? I don't see it as a massive position of strength for the lions