[2021 Six Nations] England Squad

[Reiser99]

Farrell won't be dropped, and I'm not 100% sure I would drop him for the trip to Wales. He was better in week 2 but still not great.

I would actually disagree with that, I don't think he was better.

It destroyed my table so summary

Pretty similar stats. Scored 5 more points, but that came from others hard work. Less carries, metres made and breaks. Tackles is the only improved area. Less kicks (that may be a good thing) and more handling errors.

For me he was just as bad and the only reason he looked better was because he was moved to a position where he ended being less involved. Honestly apart from goal kicking I can't remember anything good about him from the Italy game. I do remember with another ref he could have been yellow carded.

 

[ncurd]

Yup honestly one of the striking thing all match was how often Farrell was simply not part of an attacking threat (he was involved in one try but didn't do anything special).

I struggle to call him playmaker before this downturn now he's simply a passenger.

He won't be dropped though, and the only change I see happening out of the problem areas is Robson for Youngs and even then I don't believe it will happen.

 

[klitarris]

I would actually disagree with that, I don't think he was better.

It destroyed my table so summary

Pretty similar stats. Scored 5 more points, but that came from others hard work. Less carries, metres made and breaks. Tackles is the only improved area. Less kicks (that may be a good thing) and more handling errors.

For me he was just as bad and the only reason he looked better was because he was moved to a position where he ended being less involved. Honestly apart from goal kicking I can't remember anything good about him from the Italy game. I do remember with another ref he could have been yellow carded.

Fair enough, 'better' may be optimistic. Let's agree that he had less of a negative impact. As you say, that was because he was more out of the way at 12.

I still don't think that he is in the top two changes I'd make for the Wales game, and I don't think doing more than 2 changes is sensible. Like everyone else, I'd have made all four of the changes for Italy but that ship has sailed. Changing 8, 9, 10, 15 for Wales away is too much for me.

 

[klitarris]

Yup honestly one of the striking thing all match was how often Farrell was simply not part of an attacking threat (he was involved in one try but didn't do anything special).

I struggle to call him playmaker before this downturn now he's simply a passenger.

He won't be dropped though, and the only change I see happening out of the problem areas is Robson for Youngs and even then I don't believe it will happen.

Agreed, he was never really a playmaker - poor wordchoice from me. I'd have called him a distributor, and at his best he is a very good one of those.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I reckon it'll be Ford and Farrell which always makes me nervous to be honest. England always raise their game against Wales so I'm expecting Billy to be smashing through lines and Farrell to be at his shithouse best.

Interesting that both teams don't know exactly what each other's respective starting sides will be. England have less of a clue than we do perhaps as even Pivac probably doesn't know what his side is yet but same could be said for England in a few key positions but no way Eddie makes wholesale changes.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I've long argued that the captaincy is detrimental to Faz esp if being playmaker and goal kicker. Add in rustiness and form issues and it's not a great combo.

I doubt Faz will be dropped. Also unlikely, but I think the better option would be to give the captaincy to, presumably, Itoje to free up Faz to concentrate on his game whether that's at 10 or, more likely, 12. Faz can still be rabble rouser in chief a role he's much better suited to.

Dropping Faz or changing his status would be totally justifiable. Either would be a big call but Jones gets paid the big money for making big decisions (if we've got any actuaries here is there any correlation between his increased conservatism and his pay cut ?).

 

[klitarris]

I've long argued that the captaincy is detrimental to Faz esp if being playmaker and goal kicker. Add in rustiness and form issues and it's not a great combo.

I doubt Faz will be dropped. Also unlikely, but I think the better option would be to give the captaincy to, presumably, Itoje to free up Faz to concentrate on his game whether that's at 10 or, more likely, 12. Faz can still be rabble rouser in chief a role he's much better suited to.

Dropping Faz or changing his status would be totally justifiable. Either would be a big call but Jones gets paid the big money for making big decisions (if we've got any actuaries here is there any correlation between his increased conservatism and his pay cut ?).

Totally agree about the captaincy. I always thought we should have done what Wales did with Warburton and made a young forward captain instead of Farrell. Itoje being the obvious choice.

Neither option will happen though. If Farrell plays, he is captain. And I just don't think he will be dropped.

 

[BPM]

No, it isn't. But we didn't need to be in the position where we're even talking about it.....

Binny's been out of form for years. Sinecure - no real alternatives tried.

The same criticisms have been levelled at Youngs for years. Sinecure - no real alternatives tried.

It's been blindingly obvious for years that Daly isn't a full back. Sinecure - no real alternatives tried.

By doing nothing about it and not bringing competitions for those places Jones has made a rod for his own back and is now starting to come under pressure for change in several key positions. He has options for all of them, but no clear Plan Bs with anything other than unproven potential (assuming Malins not Watson is next in line at FB).

Now we also have the added complication of Faz being totally out of form too. He's the skipper and won't be canned yet. We have an experienced alternative to him at 10, but that means he goes to 12 and we're still no nearer having a settled / balanced midfield.

I don't disagree with star overall sentiment, but as don't think it's true to say 'no alternatives tried'. In truth, I really don't think anyone has really demanded selection on those positions.

I'd have like to have seen Mercer given a run at 8, but as he's now off to France, he won't be an option any time soon. I'm a big fan of Dombrandt's but I still feel as though he's a way off of being ready and as great as Simmonds is, I still believe that picking him necessitates tinkering with the pack to accommodate him. As it is, I'd be happy for Wilson or Earl to play at 8, but I'm expecting he back row against Wales to be Lawes, Curry and Billy.

At 15, alternatives have been tried. Furbank wasn't ready, but his selection suggests to me that Eddie has wanted to experiment but hasn't really had the options to do it. Malins has only become a realistic contender since moving to Bristol. At Sarries he was either injured or stuck behind Goode. Personally I would have at least tried Watson at 15 with Daly moving to the wing or swapping him for Thorley or Nowell (if he was ever fit). I'm not sure why that was never tried. It definitely should have been.

At 9, Robson previously had a bad habit of playing poorly in the build up to squad selection and/or playing poorly when he was tried. Last weekend was really the first time he looked comfortable in an England jersey IMO. Spencer probably should have got more of an opportunity but he (like the rest of the Bath side) has been in poor form recently. They've also had a look at Mitchell but he hasn't kicked on quite as expected. Hopefully Randall is impressing in training.

12 is a really difficult option as there simply isn't an outstanding candidate to force the issue. I'm still annoyed that we missed out on both Redpath and Williams, but I wouldn't have said either would have been a genuine challenger to Farrell's starting place. Same for Devoto. Slade really should be an obvious contender but he's never looked good at 12 and Lawrence is a 13 being asked to play out of position and then never being given the ball. I think it's very clear that our attack is significantly better with Ford at 10 but until we have someone at 12 who is good enough to warrant dropping the captain and justifying all of the media furore that would undoubtedly create, we're kind of stuck with it.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Totally agree about the captaincy. I always thought we should have done what Wales did with Warburton and made a young forward captain instead of Farrell. Itoje being the obvious choice.

Yup, should be Itoje or Curry IMO
Poor form aside - one of the reasons I want to see Farrell out of the XV is so other potential leaders can step up
The only other captain I can remember, since Hartley was dropped, was Ford - and he doesn't really strike me as a captain tbh

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I don't disagree with star overall sentiment, but as don't think it's true to say 'no alternatives tried'. In truth, I really don't think anyone has really demanded selection on those positions.

I'd have like to have seen Mercer given a run at 8, but as he's now off to France, he won't be an option any time soon. I'm a big fan of Dombrandt's but I still feel as though he's a way off of being ready and as great as Simmonds is, I still believe that picking him necessitates tinkering with the pack to accommodate him. As it is, I'd be happy for Wilson or Earl to play at 8, but I'm expecting he back row against Wales to be Lawes, Curry and Billy.

At 15, alternatives have been tried. Furbank wasn't ready, but his selection suggests to me that Eddie has wanted to experiment but hasn't really had the options to do it. Malins has only become a realistic contender since moving to Bristol. At Sarries he was either injured or stuck behind Goode. Personally I would have at least tried Watson at 15 with Daly moving to the wing or swapping him for Thorley or Nowell (if he was ever fit). I'm not sure why that was never tried. It definitely should have been.

At 9, Robson previously had a bad habit of playing poorly in the build up to squad selection and/or playing poorly when he was tried. Last weekend was really the first time he looked comfortable in an England jersey IMO. Spencer probably should have got more of an opportunity but he (like the rest of the Bath side) has been in poor form recently. They've also had a look at Mitchell but he hasn't kicked on quite as expected. Hopefully Randall is impressing in training.

12 is a really difficult option as there simply isn't an outstanding candidate to force the issue. I'm still annoyed that we missed out on both Redpath and Williams, but I wouldn't have said either would have been a genuine challenger to Farrell's starting place. Same for Devoto. Slade really should be an obvious contender but he's never looked good at 12 and Lawrence is a 13 being asked to play out of position and then never being given the ball. I think it's very clear that our attack is significantly better with Ford at 10 but until we have someone at 12 who is good enough to warrant dropping the captain and justifying all of the media furore that would undoubtedly create, we're kind of stuck with it.

I'd forgotten about Furbank which says it all! But Watson was the obvious choice and Woodward should certainly have got a look in. Nowell had his advocates, although not me, but there's been no reason to persist with Daly.

Also interesting that Brown said Goode got cut after challenging Jones. I think he had more to offer on the international stage than he ever showed but that ship has well sailed.

With Malins now on the scene and the likes of Steward and TdG coming through we're starting to get some good FB options.

 

[Reiser99]

On a couple of points.

First that 4 changes is too many. Yes it possibly is, but only because some of these changes should have happened a while ago. If we had clear back ups in each of those positions we wouldn't be in this problem, but Jones have refused to address the depth in 8,9, 12 and 15. However, according to Connor O'Shea, where we finish in the 6Ns isn't high up on the RFU's list, so **** it. Why not experiment? (Yes we could lose and Jones goes see I told you so, but hopefully it would be judged on performance, rather than just result.)

Second I think it's been shown that Farrell is not a playmaker and not a captain. With the latter all he ever does is whine, rather than build a rapport with the ref. He also seems to be completely lost when England are losing and can't motivate the players. On the former, he's a distributor, not a play maker and pretty much seems to follow the tactics from 0-80, regardless of if they are working (which leads back to not being able to change things when England are losing). He needs a strong character to tell him what to do (Ford for example). The only real benefits he brought were tackling and kicking and recently neither of those has been good enough. On top you're always worried if he'll do something stupid and get a yellow card. Twice this 6Ns he's done something that I've seen been given a card or at least a penalty in the premiership and get away with it. The shoulder barge and running into a group of players arguing. At the moment you really have to question what he is actually bringing to this side.

 

[klitarris]

Yup, should be Itoje or Curry IMO
Poor form aside - one of the reasons I want to see Farrell out of the XV is so other potential leaders can step up
The only other captain I can remember, since Hartley was dropped, was Ford - and he doesn't really strike me as a captain tbh

What do you think about Underhill? I've seen his name put forward somewhere and I can't make my mind up.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Yup, should be Itoje or Curry IMO
Poor form aside - one of the reasons I want to see Farrell out of the XV is so other potential leaders can step up
The only other captain I can remember, since Hartley was dropped, was Ford - and he doesn't really strike me as a captain tbh

......and isn't guaranteed a starting slot so can't be in the equation.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Yup, should be Itoje or Curry IMO
Poor form aside - one of the reasons I want to see Farrell out of the XV is so other potential leaders can step up
The only other captain I can remember, since Hartley was dropped, was Ford - and he doesn't really strike me as a captain tbh

I'm a massive fan of Curry but really not convinced that he'd be a good choice for captain. He's clearly well liked by the squad but comes off as quite shy and quirky and usually at the butt of a lot of jokes - I'm not really sure how much respect he commands. I also know that he comes alive at game time and is much more vocal but Hartley's said multiple times that 90% of what he did as captain wasn't about what he did during the match but about preparing the team during the week, as well as calling out and disciplining players when necessary - I can't see Curry being able to do that; not at the moment at least.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

What do you think about Underhill? I've seen his name put forward somewhere and I can't make my mind up.

He'd certainly lead from the front. Haven't ever noticed him being particularly vocal.

Agree with Olyy on Itoje or Curry as a Carlingesque punt. But would have plenty of reservations on both.

I always thought Launch was too quiet with crap body language, but he seems to have developed into a really respected leader at Wasps in a non tub thumping kind of way. Not around at the moment but if we're going to have a tight head lock - as we should - then he's pretty much guaranteed that slot and might be a sound choice rather than lumping it on one of the superstars. Launch is a proven international, a lot calmer than some and is used to captaincy.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm a massive fan of Curry but really not convinced that he'd be a good choice for captain. He's clearly well liked by the squad but comes off as quite shy and quirky and usually at the butt of a lot of jokes - I'm not really sure how much respect he commands. I also know that he comes alive at game time and is much more vocal but Hartley's said multiple times that 90% of what he did as captain wasn't about what he did during the match but about preparing the team during the week, as well as calling out and disciplining players when necessary - I can't see Curry being able to do that; not at the moment at least.

Aye that's fair - I think a good leadership unit is as/more important than the on field captain alone, anyway
England seem to be lacking in leaders - it's Farrell and Farrell alone (presumably by design, rather than everyone else being shrinking violets), and he's not really excelling at it

 

[Geordie]

Is Malins any different to Daly at 15 though? Im not convinced he is..

Now young Steward at Tigers...he looks the answer, sooner rather than later. A huge rock at the back, strong defense, strong under the high ball. Huge boot.
Whilst he's not rapid, and probably does need to work on his attack....that can be done.

Speaking of potential though....

Where does Barbeary come into it? Will he be a hooker or back rower??
Whats happened to Aaron Hinkley ? He was a star in the making....
Why is Ted HIll not breaking through?
What about Tom Willis - No 8 for Wasps...looks a good player
Why is Marcus Smith not considered by Jones?
How is Joel Kpoku developing...he looks a big powerful unit at lock...like Bamber at Bristol..hes huge.

 

[JG-21]

Freddie Steward defintely should be considered, I'd also like to see more game time at Exeter for Josh Hodge. I thought Ted Hill would stick with the squad as we seem to like a larger 6, but he hasn't been given a shot.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I'm a massive fan of Curry but really not convinced that he'd be a good choice for captain. He's clearly well liked by the squad but comes off as quite shy and quirky and usually at the butt of a lot of jokes - I'm not really sure how much respect he commands. I also know that he comes alive at game time and is much more vocal but Hartley's said multiple times that 90% of what he did as captain wasn't about what he did during the match but about preparing the team during the week, as well as calling out and disciplining players when necessary - I can't see Curry being able to do that; not at the moment at least.

Very fair.

Hartley was virtually 30 when he took over Eng with 6 seasons leading Saints under his belt, so fairly mature and used to dealing with the off field stuff.

Launch is that same age now and has led Pests for 5 years, not all of it plain sailing.

The only club captains in the current squad are Ewels and Wilson neither of whom are realistic contenders. Ted Hill leading Worcs might auger well for the future, but he's currently a long way from the team.

Club captaincy isn't necessarily a prerequisite but it has to be the best grounding. If players don't have that direct experience then they need pretty exceptional leadership skills which aren't massively in evidence throughout the squad (and would probably have been called on by their clubs anyhow....).

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Is Malins any different to Daly at 15 though? Im not convinced he is..

Now young Steward at Tigers...he looks the answer, sooner rather than later. A huge rock at the back, strong defense, strong under the high ball. Huge boot.
Whilst he's not rapid, and probably does need to work on his attack....that can be done.

Speaking of potential though....

Where does Barbeary come into it? Will he be a hooker or back rower??
Whats happened to Aaron Hinkley ? He was a star in the making....
Why is Ted HIll not breaking through?
What about Tom Willis - No 8 for Wasps...looks a good player
Why is Marcus Smith not considered by Jones?
How is Joel Kpoku developing...he looks a big powerful unit at lock...like Bamber at Bristol..hes huge.

I think Malins is very different to Daly in that Malins is actually a 15 and Daly isn't. I see what you mean in that they're a very similar style of player offensively but I think that offensively Daly (when in form) is pretty much the perfect mould for a 15 - fast and agile but also able to distribute and play make. Where Daly doesn't function as a 15 is defensively and in regards to positioning but I think that Malins is significantly better than him in those areas of play.

On Barbeary, I don't know what Wasps will do with him but I hope that he moves back to hooker. In a way I think the fact that he's so good has worked against him - most 20 year old hookers would be forgiven if their lineout ability hadn't been perfected yet and they'd be given the opportunity to work on that away from their respective 1st team, but because he's too good to be left out of the Wasps side he isn't getting that opportunity.

Hinkley's been injured for the majority of his time at Chiefs and I'm not overly optimistic about his England chances while he's with us. Baxter clearly sees him as a Simmonds-style 8 (fairly sure that's the only position he's played in his few appearances for us) and EJ just doesn't like that type of player.