[2020 Six Nations] Italy vs England (31/10/20)

[TheOvalBall]

Question for those that know: After Owen Farrell successfully kicks for points, what do the hand signs mean that he makes ?

 

[Which Tyler]

Question for those that know: What does the hand signs mean after Owen Farrell scores points ?

It's in honour of a dead kid who had a pretty big impact on the Saracens players at a charity meet-up - interlocking J.s

ETA: https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-uni...d-rugby-star-what-meaning-jack-johnson-252953

 

[Which Tyler]

For anyone with better testicular fortitude than I - here's the minute by minute "summary" of how England kicked the ball away often and pointlessly.

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[TheOvalBall]

It's in honour of a dead kid who had a pretty big impact on the Saracens players at a charity meet-up - interlocking J.s

ETA: https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-uni...d-rugby-star-what-meaning-jack-johnson-252953

Awesome! Thanks.

 

[TheOvalBall]

Just finished watching this match. England were just too good. Ben Youngs, 2x tries in 100th game ? How many times does that happen ? Incredible.
Quite funny Farrell hitting each post 2 kicks in a row.
Italy are way too emotional. That never works in rugby. Sometimes i think Italians aren't suited for rugby, simply because they are too emotional as a people.
They should be kicked out of 6 Nations. They have always been dreadful in the competition.

 

[Jashay]

For anyone with better testicular fortitude than I - here's the minute by minute "summary" of how England kicked the ball away often and pointlessly.

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The tactical thing that stuck out to me (besides the kicking) was how it felt like literally everything had to go through Faz, even when there were forwards in much better positions. It was more prevalent in the second half when we kicked less. Like, there's one at 47 minutes where Youngs has Billy V and Sinckler outside of him with Faz tucked well behind. Ball goes to Faz, entire Italy defensive line saunters up, Faz does that torturous pass out the back to Watson and only the fact that Watson actually makes something like 10m whilst being tackled prevents England from losing loads of ground. That was repeated time and time again in the second half.

I know this is a tactic that can work, but Faz was often so far behind the play (possibly to allow for a kick?) and so insistent on the pass out the back that at some points Italy were completely ignoring the forwards before the pass was even thrown, confident in the knowledge that the forwards were not getting the ball.

Our forwards are really quite good at the route one stuff, and Mako, George and Sinckler (usually) have good enough hands that I'd trust them to distribute a bit too. Route one was working well, and passes off the forwards is something England have used to incredible effect, so I found the insistence on using a poorly positioned Faz all the time really annoying.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

I was actually chuffed to win on points difference for once. Having sat through 3 consecutive seasons under Lancaster when we finished 4-1 but missed out on the ***le on points difference, twice to Ireland, it made a change for us to get the rub of the green (thanks for rubbing us, Ireland ), especially as we'd failed to put the points difference out of sight against Italy.

A great response from Eddie too. After the first game, some sausages were calling for him to be sacked, saying he'd lost the team. 4 straight wins, a triple crown and a 6 nations ***le are not too bad a riposte. And congrats to Farrell for a great decision to go for the losing bonus point penalty kick against France. That point proved crucial in the end.

I see the 'England-wins-don't count' brigade are out in the media today. According to Planet Rugby, France were far ahead of any other NH team and are the 'real winners' of the tournament. I don't deny that they look sexy in attack, but while they scored the most points, they were only 6 ahead of Ireland, and they tied with the Irish for most tries, so not exactly 'far' ahead. And wasn't there a little something in rugby called 'defence'? Despite the claims that genius Shaun Edwards has had a massive impact there, France conceded the second most points and second most tries in the tournament, ahead of only Italy on both counts. There's a reason their points difference was a substantial 23 behind England's (who conceded the second fewest points and tries). Defence still counts, lads.

That said, great to have the French back at last. Allez les bleus!

 

[Scotty]

How do we think Jonny Hill did? He got a YC but i kind of think that should have just been a pen tbh he hit one went up rather than dircect contact imo.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

How do we think Jonny Hill did? He got a YC but i kind of think that should have just been a pen tbh he hit one went up rather than dircect contact imo.

4 tackles and 1 carry was realistically very poor (although more than enough to be considered a deity in Wales). I still want to see him given a game against better opposition as this game was just so loose and I can see why it would be hard for a debutant to get into their groove. More performances like that should see him dropped though.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

4 tackles and 1 carry was realistically very poor

Yeah I just looked up the stats too, and they're not good

Thought he was anonymous outside of the lineout, but that went well enough.

Would definitely persist with him, though - would like to see him against "proper" opposition (hard to judge players vs Italy and Georgia)

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

How do we think Jonny Hill did? He got a YC but i kind of think that should have just been a pen tbh he hit one went up rather than dircect contact imo.

Hard to tell, we were kicking the ball away so much he didn't exactly have time in possession and a lot of Italian possession was out on the wings. Don't recall him doing much but I thought that was true for the entire team (apart from Ben Youngs annoyingly, and Itoje)

 

[Scotty]

Hard to tell, we were kicking the ball away so much he didn't exactly have time in possession and a lot of Italian possession was out on the wings. Don't recall him doing much but I thought that was true for the entire team (apart from Ben Youngs annoyingly, and Itoje)

That was kind of my thought too. He didnt stand out but also doesnt deserve to be dropped although he will be next game as he needs a break.

Happy for Slade though, 3 weeks 3 games 3 tries 3 trophies. He must be the first person to do that?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

That was kind of my thought too. He didnt stand out but also doesnt deserve to be dropped although he will be next game as he needs a break.

Happy for Slade though, 3 weeks 3 games 3 tries 3 trophies. He must be the first person to do that?

Definitely the first time anyone's won those 3 trophies in the span of 3 weeks, for obvious reasons.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Definitely the first time anyone's won those 3 trophies in the span of 3 weeks, for obvious reasons.

I wonder if he was bouncing around after singing:

 

[Scotty]

Definitely the first time anyone's won those 3 trophies in the span of 3 weeks, for obvious reasons.

Still a great achievement to play all 3 in 3 weeks and score in each if them.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I though Hill got through loads of work around the tackle area but I thought he looked really out of place in the England system. He seemed to pop up in the wrong channels and at the wrong side of play.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Hill's stats aren't good, but he was responsible for arguably the key momentum shift in the match.

As the 2nd half started we'd only banked one try and stunk the place out. If we hadn't scored our second until, say, 55 mins or later things would have got v twitchy on the BP front let alone points difference. Youngs however scored early and settled the nerves, rightly he took the plaudits for a good finish, but that possession came directly from Hill's charge down. That was a much bigger influence on the game than many had. And he was only on the field for 58 mins - partly self inflicted and I'd guess the yellow inhibited him a bit too.

Line out was fine and I thought he hit his share of rucks. Not stellar, not dire and we need to see him against better oppo.

But I'd still prefer Isiekwe.

 

[klitarris]

I'm a big Farrell fan, but I've decided I don't like him at 10 for England. Maybe it is the gameplan imposed on him, but i feel he doesn't play heads up rugby there and play what's in front of him. As others have pointed out there were a number of times where he kicked (which was obviously the gameplan so maybe not all him) when there were far better options out wide. I think i prefer him at 12 where he gets a bit more time to assess what's in front of him and decide accordingly. There are two follow on questions:

1. Who comes in at 10? Personally i want to move on from Ford. Partly because of his permanent look of surprise, but mostly because i think we've got all we're going to get from him, and i don't see much improvement from him going forwards - happy to be proved wrong though! I think Joe Simmonds is worth a shot, and certainly I'd have had him in before Umaga.

2. Is Farrell the best 12 we have? Probably, yes. Slade has all the skillset to be a better 12 i think, but has never really nailed it on those occasions I've seen him play there.

It's the classic England Rugby problem of 10, 12, 13 and I don't know the answer! For me Slade is one of the first on the teamsheet at the moment, and I'd pick him at 13. At 10 and 12 i would like to see Simmonds and Lawrence, but there are 3 issues with that - I think Lawrence is more of a 13 than a 12, it would leave a 10 and 12 with 1 cap between them (i think?), and Farrell is never going to get dropped. So maybe it's time to move on from the idea of having a bosher in midfield? But then how do we get over the gainline in contact? Aargh, too many questions! To conclude, I'm realising why I'm an armchair rugby coach and not a real one!!!

 

[klitarris]

Elsewhere on the park:
Mako - Did well i thought, particularly on the srummaging which was nice to see. Although i think they were going on about how his opposite number lost loads of weight in lockdown, so Mako was probably given a hand there. Will be interesting to see how he holds up against the Georgians.
George - was very good, Hill did ok (obviously marred by the yellow which was unfortunate but correct decision)
Sinckler - quiet, didn't do much wrong though if i remember
Itoje - very good indeed (I've wanted him to be tried as captain for a while, and he is looking more and more like a leader)
Curry - very good as usual
Underhill - solid but unspectacular
Billy - meh
Youngs - hard to tell, obviously two well taken tries but did he contribute to the rubbish first half performance?
Back 3 - who knows, they barely saw the ball. And that another of the big problems for England rugby, we have some fantastic back 3 players but they don't consistently see the ball enough.


Eddie Jones - poor game plan first half; good half time team talk. Unexciting selections, but that was to be expected in that game. I hope he mixes things up for the rest of the matches (if they are defintely happening?)

 

[Jashay]

I don't think the 1-cap 10-12 thing would be a problem. If it happens, it would happen against, say, Georgia so there's less pressure, or it would happen very gradually as EJ gives people 20 min cameos.

I don't think Ford is a spent force by any means, but I would also like to see Simmonds given a shot. I don't really know enough about Umaga to comment.

I think Farrell seems like an excellent 12 because England play around him being at 12. Or at least, having a second distributor in the backs. I'm probably massively oversimplifying, but I always feel like England's plan with Manu-Slade/Faz is to force the opponent to pick between using their numbers to cover the battering ram or the wide move. So in theory I could see it working with any strong runner + distributor combo, but of course it's harder to put actual names to it. High hopes for Lawrence, but hardly shone in his first cap

Yeah, the back three didn't really get unlocked vs Italy. I think their best contributions were generally when they ran the ball from deep back to centre field so we could set up from there. Furbank's kicking was a mixed bag, (although that's quite the boot he has!) and he wasn't really tested in defence. Doesn't feel like the answer at fullback, but I'm not ready to write him off after 3 caps.