[2020 Autumn Nations Cup] Wales vs England (28/11/20)

[EdBirch]

Ollie Lawrence out of match vs Wales as Jones makes 4 changes to England squad of 25

England will head to Wales next weekend with 4 changes to their 25 compared to versus Ireland - Ollie Lawrence is among those missing.

www.rugbypass.com

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Very disappointing - injury rather than dropped, though

The 25:

ENGLAND SQUAD (vs Wales)

Backs (10): Elliot Daly (Saracens, 45 caps), Owen Farrell (Saracens, 86 caps), George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 70 caps), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 53 caps), Max Malins (Bristol Bears, 2 caps), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 59 caps), Dan Robson (Wasps, 5 caps), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 32 caps), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 44 caps), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 102 caps);

Forwards (15): Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 24 caps), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 26 caps), Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 6 caps), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 21 caps), Jamie George (Saracens, 52 caps), Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 2 caps), Maro Itoje (Saracens, 41 caps), Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 67 caps), Joe Marler (Harlequins, 71 caps), Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 38 caps), Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 6 caps), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 20 caps), Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 54 caps), Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 62 caps), Jack Willis (Wasps, 1 cap)


With that split I wouldn't be surprised at a 6-2 bench, Malins drops out with Robson/Slade covering the backs from the bench

Not sure which loosehead would miss out - from EJs perspective probably Genge (though I'd start him tbh)

 

[Leinster Fan]

Yeh but Wales under Gatland v England was a very different thing.
Gatland always took games v England personally, the press articles leading up to it the past 4 years was always Eddie v Gatland rather than England v Wales. (Or the best was Hartley v Gatland)

Pivac IDK if he can motivate the team like Gatland could.
Although England only beat Wales by 3 points in the six nations the actual score was 33 - 16 till the final 2 minutes.

To be fair if Wales can get up for any game they'll be up for this one. England at home, backs against the wall. I can see them playing better than they have so far.

This likely won't be too competitive but it wouldn't completely surprise me if Wales inexplicably shaded it. I can see England being on top without necessarily scoring too much and a fired up Wales taking their chances. What's more likely of course is that Wales will continue to be utter rubbish and will lose pretty comfortably to the best team in the hemisphere.

 

[Leinster Fan]

Very disappointing - injury rather than dropped, though

The 25:

ENGLAND SQUAD (vs Wales)

Backs (10): Elliot Daly (Saracens, 45 caps), Owen Farrell (Saracens, 86 caps), George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 70 caps), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 53 caps), Max Malins (Bristol Bears, 2 caps), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 59 caps), Dan Robson (Wasps, 5 caps), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 32 caps), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 44 caps), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 102 caps);

Forwards (15): Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 24 caps), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 26 caps), Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 6 caps), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 21 caps), Jamie George (Saracens, 52 caps), Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 2 caps), Maro Itoje (Saracens, 41 caps), Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 67 caps), Joe Marler (Harlequins, 71 caps), Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 38 caps), Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 6 caps), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 20 caps), Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 54 caps), Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 62 caps), Jack Willis (Wasps, 1 cap)


With that split I wouldn't be surprised at a 6-2 bench

Watson to start with JJ at 13?

Willis in, be interesting to see if he makes the 23. Other than those same squad as he named against us right?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Watson to start with JJ at 13?

That would be my pick, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Slade move to 13 and JJ cover 13/14 (gross) from the bench
Or maybe even Watson on the bench, depending on where he's at after his injury

 

[BPM]

Watson to start with JJ at 13?

Willis in, be interesting to see if he makes the 23. Other than those same squad as he named against us right?

Nope - LCD also in instead of Dunn.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think it will be
1 - Mako
2 - George
3 - Sinckler
4 - Itoje
5 - Launch
6 - Curry
7 - Underhill
8 - Billy
9 - Youngs
10 - Ford
11 - May
12 - Farrell
13 - Slade
14 - Watson
15 - Daly

Uninspiring but I think Jones has been coaching England enough to have a special place of not wanting to lose to Wales so will put out pretty much the 1st team and play the same gameplan as we did against Ireland, relying on Wales' attack being even more blunt than the Irish one.

 

[Leinster Fan]

Nope - LCD also in instead of Dunn.

Oh yeah missed that. Makes sense. Didn't notice Marler in too (or was he there last time and I missed it).

6-2 split could be on the cards with only 10 backs in the squad.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

I think it will be
1 - Mako
2 - George
3 - Sinckler
4 - Itoje
5 - Launch
6 - Curry
7 - Underhill
8 - Billy
9 - Youngs
10 - Ford
11 - May
12 - Farrell
13 - Slade
14 - Watson
15 - Daly

Uninspiring but I think Jones has been coaching England enough to have a special place of not wanting to lose to Wales so will put out pretty much the 1st team and play the same gameplan as we did against Ireland, relying on Wales' attack being even more blunt than the Irish one.

LCD
Genge
Stuart
Hill
Earl
Willis
Robson
JJ

For the bench if thats the starting team - tossup between JJ and Slade for who starts tho

 

[klitarris]

LCD
Genge
Stuart
Hill
Earl
Willis
Robson
JJ

For the bench if thats the starting team - tossup between JJ and Slade for who starts tho

I think you guys are mostly right. Why do you think a 6-2 bench split? For me i think Slade will start at 13; if Watson is fully fit enough to start, he'll do so with JJ on the bench; i think he'll keep Malins; and it'll be either Earl or Willis, not both.

Poor Dunn. I hope he enjoyed his few minutes of international rugby! I can't for the life of me work out why he wasn't given a decent chunk against Italy and/or Georgia. And the 5 seconds he got against Ireland was a joke.

 

[dullonien]

Hoping to see this from Wales

01 Wyn Jones
02 Elliot Dee
03 Samson Lee
04 Jake Ball
05 AWJ
06 Shane Lewis Hughes
07 Josh Navidi
08 Taulupe Faletau

09 Lloyd Williams
10 Callum Sheedy
11 LRZ
12 Johnny Williams
13 Owen Watkin
14 Josh Adams
15 Liam Williams

16 Sam Parry
17 Nicky Smith
18 Tomas Francis
19 Will Rowlands/Cory Hill
20 Aaron Wainwright
21 Kieron Hardy
22 Dan Biggar
23 George North

Expecting Tips to be out after taking a heavy blow to the head v Georgia. Not 100% on Faletau, but he was looking better v Ireland, whilst I don't think Wainwright has the dog to start v England. Wainwright does offer cover across the backrow from the bench though.

We need some basics from our scrum half for this game and Lloyd has shown he can add some old fashioned zip at the base. His box kicking is also far superior to Davies and Webb who have both been very poor this autumn, hence Hardy on the bench.

I don't think Biggar offers enough at 10, so I'd lie to see Sheedy going again. Not sure if JD2 will be fit, but I personally wouldn't play him anyway as he's been way off the pace. Tompkins is a liability in defence I'm afraid.

Not that he deserves it, but maybe North makes the bench as cover for Wing/Centre, although not sure. Halfpenny would be another option with Adams covering centre. Or JD2 could occupy the 23 shirt if fit, but no real wing cover then...

 

[Goodey]

Hope we return to the Ford-Farrell combo. Prefer it to Slade in the midfield and I'd generally only really change it if Tuilagi or a reasonable approximation can play

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Hope we return to the Ford-Farrell combo. Prefer it to Slade in the midfield and I'd generally only really change it if Tuilagi or a reasonable approximation can play

Watch May's length of the field try v Ire.

Lawrence, with a bit of time threw his pass at Slade's head. Slade checked, adjusted quickly and put his pass right in the perfect place in front of May for him to run onto. May did brilliantly, but if he'd had to check to take the pass the chance may never have been there.

It sounds a very simple skill, but one that depressingly few pros complete with any degree of regularity.

That's one of the attributes that Slade brings. And note he was standing at OC when he did it. We have some very good wingers, if we are to play any form of expansive game then he is our best bet of putting them into space.

In a game that didn't really play to Slade's strengths that and a try saving tackle wasn't a bad return.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Watch May's length of the field try v Ire.

Lawrence, with a bit of time threw his pass at Slade's head. Slade checked, adjusted quickly and put his pass right in the perfect place in front of May for him to run onto. May did brilliantly, but if he'd had to check to take the pass the chance may never have been there.

It sounds a very simple skill, but one that depressingly few pros complete with any degree of regularity.

That's one of the attributes that Slade brings. And note he was standing at OC when he did it. We have some very good wingers, if we are to play any form of expansive game then he is our best bet of putting them into space.

In a game that didn't really play to Slade's strengths that and a try saving tackle wasn't a bad return.

I agree, but I don't think there's space for him in a Ford-Farrell backline, it's just too one dimensional. With Tuilagi or Lawrence around him certainly, but with Eff-and-Eff I think the outside centre needs to offer a running threat.

Ford-Lawrence-Slade/Ford-Slade-Lawrence is what I'm hoping to see at some point.

 

[Jashay]

I don't feel like the current England set-up helps Slade at all. The Youngs-Faz halfback pair is demonstrably terrible at getting backs involved because of how deep Faz sits atm, and if Ford goes 10 then Faz almost certainly goes 12 because I don't think EJ has ever dropped Faz voluntarily.

Who goes to 13 then? It's Slade's ideal position, IMO, but when Faz is at 12 Slade's main strengths (excellent distribution and kicking) are already somewhat covered. I think it needs a running threat; Tuilagi is the dream, Lawrence is the up and coming prospect, and Joseph has worked in the past.

But I also could see Slade at 13 with a running 12, like when he played with Tuilagi, but I don't think you can construct a team like that from the current 25

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I agree, but I don't think there's space for him in a Ford-Farrell backline, it's just too one dimensional. With Tuilagi or Lawrence around him certainly, but with Eff-and-Eff I think the outside centre needs to offer a running threat.

Ford-Lawrence-Slade/Ford-Slade-Lawrence is what I'm hoping to see at some point.

I think Slade offers a big running threat, but in open field, not through a brick wall. All the more reason to play him at 13.

I do agree though that Ford, Faz, Slade probably isn't the answer. Ford-Faz may work as a stop gap, but probably isn't the long term future now.

When (if) everyone's fit.....

Coka, May and Watson are my back 3. Lawrence and Slade are my preferred centres. Youngs will never be dropped, so it's just who pulls the strings from 10......Faz isn't really cutting it, Ford may be a better option albeit he's become more conservative in an Eng shirt anyway. I'd be tempted to cut straight to Simmonds....if you can't blood a 10 outside a 100 cap 9, when can you?

EDIT: But of course Faz is in the undroppable club with Youngs and Binny.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Anyone else like the idea of a 6/2 bench for this match? Looking at the squad, it seems likely that we will end up with Slade / Joseph / Watson in the XXIII in some configuration, which offers plenty of flexibility to stick Robson (preferably Youngs, but.....Eddie) at 22 and have 6 forwards available to come on and steamroller the Welsh pack.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think Slade offers a big running threat, but in open field, not through a brick wall. All the more reason to play him at 13.

More of a running threat than JJ, though?

Anyone else like the idea of a 6/2 bench for this match?

I've never really liked a 6/2 split, really - just feels inevitable with the makeup of the 25 we've selected

Plus with Daly, Watson and Ford all just back from injury it feels like tempting fate

 

[EdBirch]

Then Eddie can have Earl as the hybrid player he seems to want to force

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

More of a running threat than JJ, though?

Not as potent as JJ a few years ago, but now the gap's much narrower. I think Slade's well ahead in passing and kicking. JJ's very good defensively, but Slade's no mug in that respect. Slade's my preference but I wouldn't go into meltdown if JJ's picked. But they should battle it out for 13 and shouldn't be shoe horned into 12 or 14.

Most pleasing aspect of the Autumn so far is Launch reminding everyone of the difference heavy duty locks can make.