[2019 Six Nations] Italy vs Ireland (24/02/2019)

[Leinster Fan]

I'm not here saying Farrell is deserving at 13 just Aki and Henshaw don't mix well. Had a look at stats there. Since Aki made his debut in green the worst performances as a duo were vs France last year, Australia in test 1 and England this year. The 1st 2 were Aki/Henshaw.
When they start together we never score many tries. Exclude the Italian game last year and agaiunst a very poor SA team on Aki debut.
In 5 games they started as a centre pairing we scored 4 tries against a poor SA team, 0 vs a poor France team, 8 vs a desperate Italian team, 0 against a poor Aus team in Test 1 of Summer and 1 against same poor team in Test 3.

Compare it to when we have a proper 13 (be it Farrell, Ringrose, Addison) we have scored 43 tries in 11 games. Averages 3.9 tries per game. Compared to 2.6 per game when they are together.
The stats show that their footwork, clean breaks and linking up is not good statistically. Yes they are strong defensively but it shows that attacking we need a threat at 13.
I agree Ringrose is the best 13 but any replacement for him I feel needs to be a 13. Henshaw is a 12 now. Aki is a 12 now. I feel it's a case of 1 or the other there.

Don't get me wrong, I'd probably have Farrell slightly ahead of Henshaw as a 13 and I agree that Aki/Henshaw isn't particularly great especially going forward.

 

[munstermuffin]

Don't get me wrong, I'd probably have Farrell slightly ahead of Henshaw as a 13 and I agree that Aki/Henshaw isn't particularly great especially going forward.

I think it's more a case Chris Farrell is a 13. Henshaw is a 12. They are 2 worlds apart in terms of position sense etc. Again this isn't saying Henshaw is a poor 13 or anything just he isn't a 13. I don't think he's a 15 either.

 

[Leinster Fan]

I think it's more a case Chris Farrell is a 13. Henshaw is a 12. They are 2 worlds apart in terms of position sense etc. Again this isn't saying Henshaw is a poor 13 or anything just he isn't a 13. I don't think he's a 15 either.

He's definitely not a 15, but in the right circumstances he can be a very good 13, last year for Leinster when Ringrose was injured he played 13 outside Nacewa and was very impressive. But I agree that him and Aki are very one-dimensional at international level.

 

[munstermuffin]

He's definitely not a 15, but in the right circumstances he can be a very good 13, last year for Leinster when Ringrose was injured he played 13 outside Nacewa and was very impressive. But I agree that him and Aki are very one-dimensional at international level.

The difference there is although he was 12 Nacewa was the crafty runner. and that is the point 2 bashful, power strike runners in the centre will not work. You need a creative part.

 

[Leinster Fan]

The difference there is although he was 12 Nacewa was the crafty runner. and that is the point 2 bashful, power strike runners in the centre will not work. You need a creative part.

That's what I mean by 'right circumstances'. Nacewa was more of a creative 12, where Aki is basher. But I think there's the same problem with Chris Farrell to an extent in that he's also a big ball carrier. Like it works with Munster because he's playing with Scannell but outside Aki it's the same problem in a way. Which is why I'd like to see Tom Farrell get a go because he could be very different.

 

[munstermuffin]

That's what I mean by 'right circumstances'. Nacewa was more of a creative 12, where Aki is basher. But I think there's the same problem with Chris Farrell to an extent in that he's also a big ball carrier. Like it works with Munster because he's playing with Scannell but outside Aki it's the same problem in a way. Which is why I'd like to see Tom Farrell get a go because he could be very different.

In a 100% ideal situation at Munster with everyone fit and on top of their game a Joey-Tyler-Farrell line will be tried. Rory is not as much a baller but does have the skill to be more than a crash ball merchant.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I'm not here saying Farrell is deserving at 13 just Aki and Henshaw don't mix well. Had a look at stats there. Since Aki made his debut in green the worst performances as a duo were vs France last year, Australia in test 1 and England this year. The 1st 2 were Aki/Henshaw.
When they start together we never score many tries. Exclude the Italian game last year and agaiunst a very poor SA team on Aki debut.
In 5 games they started as a centre pairing we scored 4 tries against a poor SA team, 0 vs a poor France team, 8 vs a desperate Italian team, 0 against a poor Aus team in Test 1 of Summer and 1 against same poor team in Test 3.

Compare it to when we have a proper 13 (be it Farrell, Ringrose, Addison) we have scored 43 tries in 11 games. Averages 3.9 tries per game. Compared to 2.6 per game when they are together.
The stats show that their footwork, clean breaks and linking up is not good statistically. Yes they are strong defensively but it shows that attacking we need a threat at 13.
I agree Ringrose is the best 13 but any replacement for him I feel needs to be a 13. Henshaw is a 12 now. Aki is a 12 now. I feel it's a case of 1 or the other there.

Those stats are mad skewed by including Ringrose, he's not part of the argument.

Aki - Farrell were grand at home to Argentina in 2017 but that game was far closer than need be. 3 tries against the 9th ranked team in the world.

Aki - Farrell went well against Wales with five tries but if we're labelling all the teams Aki and Henshaw beat as poor I'm doing the same with that Wales team, the centre pairing in particular, Parkes and Scott Williams would have their work cut out to get a start for a province. 5 tries against the team ranked either 6th or 7th in the world

Aki - Addison were fairly disappointing in a three try win over a lackluster Argentina in the 2018 game. 3 tries against the 9th ranked team in the world

Aki - Farrell two weeks ago, nothing more than fine, they weren't the sole reason for not getting a BP but they played their part. 3 tries v the 7th ranked team in the world.

While more tries are being scored with those guys than Aki and Henshaw's away games against Australia who were ranked 4th at the time, apart from Scotland the defensive performances have been far worse. The jury is certainly still out on what the best option is without Ringrose. There's simply not enough data to determine it statistically so it comes down to the individual's intuition. We'll probably see what Joe Schmidt's is this weekend, I'd back Aki - Henshaw on what we've seen so far but would like to see Henshaw - Farrell.

 

[munstermuffin]

Those stats are mad skewed by including Ringrose, he's not part of the argument.

Aki - Farrell were grand at home to Argentina in 2017 but that game was far closer than need be. 3 tries against the 9th ranked team in the world.

Aki - Farrell went well against Wales with five tries but if we're labelling all the teams Aki and Henshaw beat as poor I'm doing the same with that Wales team, the centre pairing in particular, Parkes and Scott Williams would have their work cut out to get a start for a province. 5 tries against the team ranked either 6th or 7th in the world

Aki - Addison were fairly disappointing in a three try win over a lackluster Argentina in the 2018 game. 3 tries against the 9th ranked team in the world

Aki - Farrell two weeks ago, nothing more than fine, they weren't the sole reason for not getting a BP but they played their part. 3 tries v the 7th ranked team in the world.

While more tries are being scored with those guys than Aki and Henshaw's away games against Australia who were ranked 4th at the time, apart from Scotland the defensive performances have been far worse. The jury is certainly still out on what the best option is without Ringrose. There's simply not enough data to determine it statistically so it comes down to the individual's intuition. We'll probably see what Joe Schmidt's is this weekend, I'd back Aki - Henshaw on what we've seen so far but would like to see Henshaw - Farrell.

I never mentioned that the others were much better just stats show they were better. And I said Aus were poor (which was universally said) and the South African team were labelled by their own as 1 of the worst in history.
And Italy are poor. Would you disagree on any of that?

I never said that teams we beat when they weren't together were top class either. Just stated facts and my opinion of with Aki and Henshaw we would not beat the very top teams like England or New Zealand.

And in your opinion the other partnerships were as poor but they produced tries.

 

[Leinster Fan]

In a 100% ideal situation at Munster with everyone fit and on top of their game a Joey-Tyler-Farrell line will be tried. Rory is not as much a baller but does have the skill to be more than a crash ball merchant.

As I've said before I don't rate Scannell at all but his style is definitely more of a second 10 kind of player especiallynwhen compared to Aki. Bleyendaal would be the same.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I never mentioned that the others were much better just stats show they were better. And I said Aus were poor (which was universally said) and the South African team were labelled by their own as 1 of the worst in history.
And Italy are poor. Would you disagree on any of that?

I never said that teams we beat when they weren't together were top class either. Just stated facts and my opinion of with Aki and Henshaw we would not beat the very top teams like England or New Zealand.

And in your opinion the other partnerships were as poor but they produced tries.

I'd dispute how poor you make Australia out to be, that's revisionist and comes from after the wheels came off later in the season, there was absolutely none of that type of talk during or immediately after the series.

I'd also disagree with your conclusion that we couldn't beat England or NZ with Aki - Henshaw, there as good as anything we have once Ringrose is unavailable. I'd also say that considering our game is built on a strong kickchase, good defence and ball retention we should pick Aki - Henshaw ahead of any other combination we've seen so far.

I've said before that once we're down two of Murray, Sexton, Ringrose and Kearney we're a far weaker side though and it's because there is a hell of a gulf between those guys and the next off the bus in their position whoever they may be.

 

[munstermuffin]

I'd dispute how poor you make Australia out to be, that's revisionist and comes from after the wheels came off later in the season, there was absolutely none of that type of talk during or immediately after the series.

I'd also disagree with your conclusion that we couldn't beat England or NZ with Aki - Henshaw, there as good as anything we have once Ringrose is unavailable. I'd also say that considering our game is built on a strong kickchase, good defence and ball retention we should pick Aki - Henshaw ahead of any other combination we've seen so far.

I've said before that once we're down two of Murray, Sexton, Ringrose and Kearney we're a far weaker side though and it's because there is a hell of a gulf between those guys and the next off the bus in their position whoever they may be.

On the Australian comment. I'm basing it on what their media were saying even before the tests. And well their performances after back it up their not the Aus of old.

On my comments re English. It is an opiniin that I feel is backed by stats. If you disagree then fair enough but I don't feel we score enough tries with those 2 at centre and to beat a NZ or Eng you need tries.
And key bit on your next comment is our tactics need a bit of a tweak now and we see when kick game isn't going well we arr very vulnerable like the England game and for that reason I would say that is why Aki and Henshaw shouldn't start together. I don't disagree they are strong defensively but they are not creative enough to bring in others and that makes us very easy read if the kick game is off.

 

[Leinster Fan]

On the Australian comment. I'm basing it on what their media were saying even before the tests. And well their performances after back it up their not the Aus of old.

They had a poor year and aren't a great team at all but they played fairly well against us. They declined as the year went on but to use their later performances as a basis to say they were poor against us is very revisionist.

It's very true that Aki and Henshaw were woeful in the first test though.

 

[munstermuffin]

They had a poor year and aren't a great team at all but they played fairly well against us. They declined as the year went on but to use their later performances as a basis to say they were poor against us is very revisionist.

It's very true that Aki and Henshaw were woeful in the first test though.

As stated I was only basing on what btheir media was saying before and after that series about them. Ireland can only play whats in front of them. And it doesn't change my views on the Aki Henshaw combo

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

On the Australian comment. I'm basing it on what their media were saying even before the tests. And well their performances after back it up their not the Aus of old.

On my comments re English. It is an opiniin that I feel is backed by stats. If you disagree then fair enough but I don't feel we score enough tries with those 2 at centre and to beat a NZ or Eng you need tries.
And key bit on your next comment is our tactics need a bit of a tweak now and we see when kick game isn't going well we arr very vulnerable like the England game and for that reason I would say that is why Aki and Henshaw shouldn't start together. I don't disagree they are strong defensively but they are not creative enough to bring in others and that makes us very easy read if the kick game is off.

But when the other options are Chris Farrell - not very creative, worse defensively and slower. Will Addison - A bit of a turnstile and much easier to contain at international level. And then a few guys who are uncapped (presuming Schmidt continues to prefer Aki at 12) we aren't exactly flooded with options.

I'll repeat that I want to see how Henshaw and Farrell go, that's potentially very promising, but if we don't I reckon Aki - Henshaw is better than Aki - Anyone else if Ringrose isn't around. You disagree and that's fair but there's not an ounce of statistical evidence to prove either of us right or wrong here so it's fairly pointless going back to them.

As for Australia, the bookies had that series as dead even...

 

[munstermuffin]

But when the other options are Chris Farrell - not very creative, worse defensively and slower. Will Addison - A bit of a turnstile and much easier to contain at international level. And then a few guys who are uncapped (presuming Schmidt continues to prefer Aki at 12) we aren't exactly flooded with options.

I'll repeat that I want to see how Henshaw and Farrell go, that's potentially very promising, but if we don't I reckon Aki - Henshaw is better than Aki - Anyone else if Ringrose isn't around. You disagree and that's fair but there's not an ounce of statistical evidence to prove either of us right or wrong here so it's fairly pointless going back to them.

As for Australia, the bookies had that series as dead even...

On Australia I was only quoting their media and ex players not the bookies.

On 13 I think Farrell is a much better 13 offensively as he has better handling skills. You obviously don't rate him like I do but I'd certainly say he isn't much slower but more creative and not massively worst defensively.
Addison is a good 13 too. And both offer the bit of creativity.
Yes we aren't flooded with options just that in my opinion based on stats and viewing I think as a combination Aki and Henshaw are not international class attacking and you mentioned Addison easier to contain. On looking at stats it seems when we have Aki and Henshaw in centre together we are easy contained based on their stats. And I'm not just basing it on that but my views too. Yes superb defensively, ideal for kick chase game but if we are chasing a game they will not be helpful and that is why I believe as a comvo we would not beat NZ or England with them. Payne was a good runner as 13, Ringrose is a good runner, Farrell is a good line runner as 13 as is Addison. Henshaw and Aki aren't. It's just not a strength of their games as both are superb crash runners.

 

[munstermuffin]

Joey possibly out for rest of tournament lads

 

[MikeTheNative]

That's a shame, who is 3rd choice is both him and Sexton are injured?

Can't see Italy troubling Ireland much to be honest. A much Wales side that didn't play that well won reasonably comfortably in the end. Be interesting to see if Ireland let a few of the bench guys get a start.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

That's a shame, who is 3rd choice is both him and Sexton are injured?

Can't see Italy troubling Ireland much to be honest. A much Wales side that didn't play that well won reasonably comfortably in the end. Be interesting to see if Ireland let a few of the bench guys get a start.

Jack Carty who's been very good leading Connacht this year in the current squad. If both were unavailable for the next two games I wouldn't be surprised to see Sexton's back up in Leinster, Ross Byrne come in though.

In that horrendous scenario it'd be cool to see which Irish qualified import would undeservedly be fifth on the depth chart ahead of Noel "Isa" Reid.

 

[munstermuffin]

Carty next up. I'd gueas Blenyandaal next in line maybe just based on who's a natural 10 if Byrne and 3 lads in squad were out.

Team rumoured
Kearney
Earls
Farrell
Aki
Stockdale
Sexton
Murray
Jordi
Sean O'Brien
POM
Roux
Dillane
Furlong
Cronin
Kilcoyne

Best
McGrath
Ryan
Henderson
Van Der Flier
Cooney
Carty
Conway

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Wasn't entirely sure where to post this but for those of you with Instagram go and have a look at willaddisonfeedsducks. It got me good