[2018 November Tests] England vs New Zealand 10/11/18

[Ragey Erasmus]

Basically the state of this thread now

 

[Kiwiwomble]

>lawes was offside

No he wasn't. Go back a few pages. If this site had larger mb images i would conclusively prove it.

but you cant...not without knowing the the elevation of the camera, the exact dimensions of the pitch including any camber for drainage, proof the camera is exactly on half way (quite often slightly off and even a small deviation could extrapolate quite badly over that distance and angle), a more accurate position for both TJ, Lawes and the boot of who ever it is setting the offside line (GPS in their jerseys only realistically accurate to +/-4-5m). the real fuzz factor is when it leaves the ground...how many blades of grass can still be touching the ball to be considered off the ground, none?

basically...you cant CONCLUSIVELY (without doubt) prove jack **** and saying you can from a paused youtube video is a little embarrassing. The best we can do is work on a consensus of opinion which i believe is agreeing it is offside regardless of how harsh a call or how close a margin

 

[kesh]

but you cant...not without knowing the the elevation of the camera, the exact dimensions of the pitch including any camber for drainage, proof the camera is exactly on half way (quite often slightly off and even a small deviation could extrapolate quite badly over that distance and angle), a more accurate position for both TJ, Lawes and the boot of who ever it is setting the offside line (GPS in their jerseys only realistically accurate to +/-4-5m). the real fuzz factor is when it leaves the ground...how many blades of grass can still be touching the ball to be considered off the ground, none?

basically...you cant CONCLUSIVELY (without doubt) prove jack **** and saying you can from a paused youtube video is a little embarrassing. The best we can do is work on a consensus of opinion which i believe is agreeing it is offside regardless of how harsh a call or how close a margin

nah it wouldnt. he went offside and never got back onside...simple

I honestly wish i didn't have to point this out, but i do, it was a try you can see clearly on the vids below.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

gets called out on being even capable of proving it....reverts to "It was a try! i know something no one else does"

saying "you can see it clearly" doesn't actually clarify anything, the only thing its establishing is you can see something no one else can and you are repeating the same thing expecting different results...both have been used as a definition of something you should worry about

 

[Umaga's Witness]

While we are crucifying laws not addressed, and in line with your paragraph above, one is the ruck or maul clean out were players are supposed to "not leave their feet". They simply dive in and clean out someone else perhaps flopped illigally over the ball to start with. At times, dangerously so in my opinion, as it generally involves using their shoulder first to "join" the ruck. Never ever gets called. That, and players just joining from the side was overlooked several times in the AB England match up. Well, I counted once, but I bet it happened more ... "a lot more".

it happened more, it's definitely something the all blacks have noticed isn't being called much at the moment. it's not the flavour of the month. refs have been asked to watch the gap in the lineout this month and they can't be expected to police more than one law.

i can sympathise with players losing their feet accidentally, and ironically those are often the ones that do get called, but i agree that most of teh time there is no real attempt to bind to teh ruck and stay on their feet. and, yeah, like you say, not helped by the opposition not being on their feet either.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Clear, expanding ruck etc and TMO can do what he likes when a try is scored. Shame the decision wasn't as clear as you seem to think. Here's TJ lifting the ball before the NZ leg appears. Just rewind the video.

View attachment 6959

I can understand your pain; you are providing reasonable evidence but noone is really looking at it or taking you seriously, making you out like a whinger. It doesn't appear that way to me, though you're clearly frustrated.

I don't think TJ has lifted that ball in that picture, but he has in the next, so assuming those are consecutive frames what we can say is that the ball first left the ground between those two frames, thus we cannot say whether it was offside or not. If it wasn't, the All Blacks might still have won as the game wouldn't have played out the same after that point, and the All Blacks most often do win when behind by one scoring play with a few minutes left on the clock. I'd be happy to call it a draw if you are, England probably deserve more kudos than they get with a loss, but I wouldn't go as far as saying they deserve to be credited with a win.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

without knowing the the elevation of the camera, the exact dimensions of the pitch including any camber for drainage, proof the camera is exactly on half way (quite often slightly off and even a small deviation could extrapolate quite badly over that distance and angle), a more accurate position for both TJ, Lawes and the boot of who ever it is setting the offside line (GPS in their jerseys only realistically accurate to +/-4-5m). the real fuzz factor is when it leaves the ground...how many blades of grass can still be touching the ball to be considered off the ground, none?

I don't know how true any of this is, but it's a great post. "Camber for drainage" , classic.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Basically the state of this thread now

no it isn't.

 

[smartcooky]

>lawes was offside

No he wasn't. Go back a few pages. If this site had larger mb images i would conclusively prove it.

Stop hiding behind bogus claims about technology limits. Put your images Dropbox or Google drive or OneDrive (if you can figure out how) and post links to them. The adults in the room have been around here long enough know how to download from links.

Oh and do keep digging that hole you've gotten yourself into... its entertaining to watch

 

[smartcooky]

no it isn't.

Yes it is!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Or even just put them on imgur and link to that

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I don't know how true any of this is, but it's a great post. "Camber for drainage" , classic.

I'm a surveyor so measurment is kind of my thing, did a little bit of photogrammetry too, not loads but enough to have a crack at what info you'd need

 

[Thingimubob]

Enjoying the detail that this thread has got to.

Carry on.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I feel bad for all the English who said last week's ruckus was an anti English thing and it wouldn't happen in reverse. You were so close to being proven right. Then maths happened. Idk, blame Isaac Newton on this one or something.

 

[ncurd]

I feel bad for all the English who said last week's ruckus was an anti English thing and it wouldn't happen in reverse. You were so close to being proven right. Then maths happened. Idk, blame Isaac Newton on this one or something.

I would suggest look at English posters (in ratio to other nations) there are and after the heat of the game have backed down and said sure correct decision made.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I would suggest look at English posters (in ratio to other nations) there are and after the heat of the game have backed down and said sure correct decision made.

I'm joking. I don't think the two scenarios are all that comparable.

 

[kesh]

I can understand your pain; you are providing reasonable evidence but noone is really looking at it or taking you seriously, making you out like a whinger. It doesn't appear that way to me, though you're clearly frustrated.

I don't think TJ has lifted that ball in that picture, but he has in the next, so assuming those are consecutive frames what we can say is that the ball first left the ground between those two frames, thus we cannot say whether it was offside or not. If it wasn't, the All Blacks might still have won as the game wouldn't have played out the same after that point, and the All Blacks most often do win when behind by one scoring play with a few minutes left on the clock. I'd be happy to call it a draw if you are, England probably deserve more kudos than they get with a loss, but I wouldn't go as far as saying they deserve to be credited with a win.

Ball is lifted, hindmost body part circled, using your grid lines, Lawes is well offside.

Whether he is offside due to him moving forward or the ruck moving forward is regardless, he needs to retire onside before advancing. He does not.

Oh even it was allowed to be a try by the on-field ref (like he originally planned) i don't assume we'd have won at all, especially going off New Zealand's last couple of tight games where you still somehow come out with a late try.
Paulo you're not highlighting TJ.
Around the 0.4 mark, the NZ leg lands after TJ lifts the ball so Lawes isn't offside. You can see the NZ foot appear in the frame but it hasn't touched the grass yet. I'm just repeating myself now though so won't bother but it was a try.

 

[Nubiwan]

Like I said before - I'm with the refs on that one.

For what its worth (and to me look like Im objective, which I am lol), I agreed with Angus Gardner on his judgement not to penalise Farrell for his game winning hit on Esterhuizen against the Boks the week before.

On both tough occasions, the refs have ruled within the laws of the game.

Find myself nodding with this. I thought the TMO/refs could have let either decision go and let on field decisions stand. Similarly, if Farrell were cited, it would hardly have been a shocker, and the Underhill try called back against the ABS could possibly have done without a TMO decision in fairness.

I still have no problem with either decision, and feel both games prove England are just about in the vicinity of where they need to be, going into a the World Cup year. The results mean little in fairness as, for me at least, it was always going to be about where England are with respect to the Southern Hem teams.

I think they did OK, considering before the ABs game, I was a little apprehensive about their chances.

 

[Nubiwan]

I'd like to see a replay of each and every blocked kick at half back. I am betting few of the blockers were ever actually onside. Can someone upload 25 videos to prove me right?

Salt n Vinegar!!!!!

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Anyone starting to feel sympathy for match officials?