[2018 November Tests] England vs New Zealand 10/11/18

[Nubiwan]

Yes clearly those arrows point to excellence.

On a serious note those pictures also show Barrett, Smith and Retallick mucking around doing nothing.

Savea and Barrett make the tackle. Offside, both of them. Fair is fair. Offside at the ruck law could be administered 50 times a match. TMO would prove them correct every time. That is the point.

 

[Nubiwan]

Finally, does the tash work for you lot?????

 

[Derpus]

Makes him look mexican

 

[mania]

Since we're posting pictures of critical offside situations that the TMO decides "not" to call back, then what about this one
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Nubiwan you're correct that they are all offside, but as a try was never scored and its not counted as foul play then ref and TMO cant go back and review it

 

[Bean]

Makes him look mexican

That is Jose Smith.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Since we're posting pictures of critical offside situations that the TMO decides "not" to call back, then what about this one when England decided to opt for a line out instead of kicking 3 points. No TMO intervention here. Right on the Abs goal line - no less.

I see 5 ABs clearly not behind the last foot of the ruck (the goal line). One of them is Savea, who is not even bound to the side of the ruck, and he becomes the first tackler.

The ensuing pass from Itoje, was knocked on by Sinclar. No penalty. NZ scrum. Cleared down field. No questions asked.

My point of all this is that the offside line at ruck is never adhered to, by either side, so when it does get called in a situation that changes the result, then it seems a hypocritical by the officials, particularly when a borderline decision (on the field) is overruled.

I simply scanned the video for 30 seconds to find this one instance. It happens at nearly every breakdown. Rarely is everyone behind the last foot or body part on the ground.



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are you saying that on reveiw they should have seen he was offside and just said "most of the time we dont bother with that so dont worry"?

 

[Paulo]

Is Ashton actually offside in this picture? There's a line on the pitch that you can use to gauge it; the offside line looks to be a foot or so past the grass line, Ashton appears to also be a foot or so past the same line. I think he's still offside there, but not so far out as to deserve a 'LOL'. I'm assuming the touch judge there is in a perfect position to check, too.

Separately, with the 'hindmost part' wording, could a player stick a leg/arm out whilst on the ground to shift the offside line back a couple of feet? (Assuming they don't mind getting a bit of 'accidental' trampling on said limb!)

I think I'm theory yes, but in practice it doesn't happen. Most D-lines creep up and especially the further wide they are from the actual ruck, most of the time it isn't called as it disrupts the flow of the game. Like a lot of obstruction too. Generally those things are called a lot tighter if they are used to get a try, then they tend to review and call back. Read was hit with a solid tackle right before Barret scores his try, it's not called as BB scores. Refs won't call everything.

At the end of that day, Eng went out 15-0 up in 25mins then couldn't score again, that's why they lost, not for one (correct) decision near the death. Review what you did well and what you can improve on instead of dwelling on one ruck.

 

[Bean]

Absolute demolition.

New Zealand laid waste to the English. No surprise.

Might want to stick to soccer from now on.

How could people downvote this?

 

[smartcooky]

That's what gets me the tmo said himself this is the best camera angle which was a bad camera angle and the ref was in line

But the referee may not have been actually looking at the offside line at that moment. Like any human, he can only look at one place at any given moment, and he has no opportunity to go back and look at what he just missed. That is what the TMO is for.

The TMO is in a booth with multiple screens.....

... which allow him to see multiple things at the same time. He can even have his assistant synchronise the replay streams from two camera angles, for example, a ball carrier grounds the ball in-goal but his trailing foot touches the touchline. The in the front on view of the grounding, the player's trailing foot cannot be seen; from the back on view, the foot can be seen touching the touchline, but grounding cannot be seen. Syncing the two video streams allows the TMO to move back and forward frame-by-frame to see which happened first.

So how does this all help in this case? One camera on the offside line, the other on the ball and TJP picking it up.... synced streams allow the TMO to determine that Lawes was offside before TJP lifted the ball.

At the speed of the modern game is played at, the referee doesn't a hope in hell of making that judgement accurately.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Justice!

 

[Paulo]

But the referee may not have been actually looking at the offside line at that moment. Like any human, he can only look at one place at any given moment, and he has no opportunity to go back and look at what he just missed. That is what the TMO is for.

The TMO is in a booth with multiple screens.....

... which allow him to see multiple things at the same time. He can even have his assistant synchronise the replay streams from two camera angles, for example, a ball carrier grounds the ball in-goal but his trailing foot touches the touchline. The in the front on view of the grounding, the player's trailing foot cannot be seen; from the back on view, the foot can be seen touching the touchline, but grounding cannot be seen. Syncing the two video streams allows the TMO to move back and forward frame-by-frame to see which happened first.

So how does this all help in this case? One camera on the offside line, the other on the ball and TJP picking it up.... synced streams allow the TMO to determine that Lawes was offside before TJP lifted the ball.

At the speed of the modern game is played at, the referee doesn't a hope in hell of making that judgement accurately.

Pretty much this. The ref is not actually on the offside line you can see him plainly in the picture all the salty English are posting. He wouldn't be able to see the trailing foot which puts Lawes offside. He is more focused on TJs pick up at the base. As he should be.

They use the TMO for reviews when tries are scored, hence why a lot of these offsides go uncalled for both teams a lot of the time. The illusion that the ABs do this more or less than any other tier 1 team is an illusion.

 

[smartcooky]

Is Ashton actually offside in this picture?)

IMO, no he is not. He just looks offside because he is ahead of his team-mates, but they seem to be well behind the offside line.

Although I agree it was offside, a freeze frame makes it obvious. What you fail to do is show that your player had taken that leading step only a fraction before that frame.

And if you were at the offside line of a maul being pushed back, would you stand there and remain offside, or would you back-pedal as the offside line retreats towards your goal line? Players at this level are supposed to be professional enough to be aware of their surroundings and act accordingly. I would expect a player of Lawes' calibre to see the opponent coming forward and step back. In any case, he was already offside ahead of the hindmost part of his own player; the NZ player stepping forward only made him more offside.

Smart, only pipes up when a decision goes for NZ.

Rubbish; I've been known to lose my biscuit when a decision does against NZ. Just ask some of those who were here before you joined, about October 6, 2007.

In reality, I post here infrequently these days because there are too many dickheads on this forum (sad to say, including some of my countrymen) and I can't be bothered dealing with them.

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on a skeptics forum, debating YECs, Conspiracy Theorists and junk science advocates. Overall, they are a better class of Stupid.

 

[smartcooky]

Finally, does the tash work for you lot?????

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I prefer it to the man-bun!

 

[TRF_heineken]

What bothers me is that World Rugby has now made an official statement in saying that the right call was made to disallow the late try by England. But they refuse to say anything about last week's incident? WTF!!

 

[Derpus]

What bothers me is that World Rugby has now made an official statement in saying that the right call was made to disallow the late try by England. But they refuse to say anything about last week's incident? WTF!!

All Blacks are a protected species mate. How are you not used to this?

 

[ncurd]

What bothers me is that World Rugby has now made an official statement in saying that the right call was made to disallow the late try by England. But they refuse to say anything about last week's incident? WTF!!

I mean it's nonsense, but the simple reasoning is it's the difference between asserting a correct decision was made and chucking a referee under the bus for the wrong one.

 

[kesh]

I think I'm theory yes, but in practice it doesn't happen. Most D-lines creep up and especially the further wide they are from the actual ruck, most of the time it isn't called as it disrupts the flow of the game. Like a lot of obstruction too. Generally those things are called a lot tighter if they are used to get a try, then they tend to review and call back. Read was hit with a solid tackle right before Barret scores his try, it's not called as BB scores. Refs won't call everything.

At the end of that day, Eng went out 15-0 up in 25mins then couldn't score again, that's why they lost, not for one (correct) decision near the death. Review what you did well and what you can improve on instead of dwelling on one ruck.

Apparently that was the weekend the new '2018 TMO Protocol' was introduced.
https://rugbyreferee.net/2018/10/05/tmo-protocol-to-change-for-autumn-internationals/

So we now know that:

>Garces told Lawes he was onside
>that an incident has to be CLEAR and OBVIOUS under acts of foul play for a TMO be get involved
>Kieran Reed asked Garces he had to check and Garces said "no, no, i'm happy"
>Saffer TMO said to Garces "i think you need to check"
>it was looked at twice in normal speed and six times in slow motion on an angled camera
>that a try scoring decision is deliberated on by the four officials with the final decision by the on-field ref
>Garces said to the TMO "what should i do"
>the TMO disallowed the try
>against the protocol saying it was ultimately upto the on-field ref

World Rugby defended the decision:
>"Ultimately however, the governing body believes a number of mitigating factors meant Garces was within his rights to defer the final decision to the TMO, chiefly the poor weather conditions which made visibility of Twickenham's big screens more difficult."

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/i...as-england-moans-continue-over-all-blacks-win


Obviously it wasn't all about that decision, just glad this has happened in a nothing game before the WC and is being reviewed by World Rugby.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

WTF has happened to aaronSmith? his passes were sluggish and he was making wrong decisions. he's a real liability at the moment.

pikNgoes was when aSmith was taken out of the equation and we started getting ascendancy.

def not the best HB in the world at the moment

and SBW better get his **** together. with ngani and crotty knocking on that door its only a matter of time before SBW has to give way to better centres

smith hasn't been his best for a while now. his passes are usually fast and accurate from the point of release to the point of their target, but he is taking a lot longer to get the ball away form the point it is available. to be fair, part of this is the forwards not doing as good a job, but i do see other players manage to dig in and get balls out quicker in similar situations. I think we also expect a lot form him. I know when i get critical it makes me watch him closer, and i see he still is a very good player, at times he gets quick flat balls that lead to breaks, and he still does that better than anyone.

in terms of decision making, i think that's a form thing. we've all seen him get rattled before adn we've all seen games when his decision making is world class.

here's hoping he returns to form in every respect.

SBW hasn't had much game time recently, so probably worth persevering with, though i'd like to see laumape ALB combo; reckon it would suit them both, especially if we have both damian and beauden in the team.

 

[Paulo]

All Blacks are a protected species mate. How are you not used to this?

Maybe it's because the Spring Boks realised they had more than that one decision to blame for the loss, even if its a wrong decision, and have stopped complaining and the morning after had moved onto forward planning. Where as the English fans have not stopped talking about it and are still salty, instead of asking why they could not score for almost an hour after going up 15-0.

 

[ncurd]

I think in reflection my only issue is lack of explanation at the time if the TMO said he had seen the front foot then fine. If not it is not clear and obvious and therefore should not of been overruled.

Like I say its the lack of explanation that's the problem if the TMO overruled a decision he should be saying why.

Not sure what the mitigating circumstances were....just think thats them covering their asses.