[2018 November Tests] England vs New Zealand 10/11/18

[BluenoseKelv]

For me Hepburn, George and Sinkler are all finishers. I don't think i've seen George or Sinkler have a good game for England when starting. So for me Moon, Hartley and Williams to start front row. Itoje and Kruis 2nd row with Lawes off the bench. Mercer simply won't start in a big match like the ABs so it will be Shields, Underhill (Curry if fit) and Wilson.

Sadly Youngs will probably start at 9 with Farrell at 10 even though Youngs is out of form and kicks possession away too often. I would stick with Te'o and Slade with Tuilagi coming off the bench. Slade is more of a 12 at test level for me but Tuilagi isn't fit enough to start and Marchant won't be in the squad to face the ABs. Even though he isn't suited to 15 we all know Daly will start there.

Finally May just has to start as our best winger and Ashton for Nowell too as Nowell lacks the speed of some wingers for although he is a workhorse.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Curry is already out, 'serious' ankle injury as well so you would think that would be him out for the rest of the AIs.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/46105540

I find it interesting you say that Youngs kicks too much ball. i thought that his box kicks were one of the reasons that England managed to stay in it in the first half. They all had great distance as well as hang time so England could compete gaining back some territory and more important, reliving some of the pressure.

 

[TommiG88]

Curry is already out, 'serious' ankle injury as well so you would think that would be him out for the rest of the AIs.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/46105540

I find it interesting you say that Youngs kicks too much ball. i thought that his box kicks were one of the reasons that England managed to stay in it in the first half. They all had great distance as well as hang time so England could compete gaining back some territory and more important, reliving some of the pressure.

I felt he was part of the reason that put us under pressure. Come the 2nd half it was a significant change when he actually passed to Farrell. Farrell carried the majority of the kicking in the 2nd half and it was a lot better.

 

[Nudger]

I felt he was part of the reason that put us under pressure. Come the 2nd half it was a significant change when he actually passed to Farrell. Farrell carried the majority of the kicking in the 2nd half and it was a lot better.

I thought was because we got some front foot ball

 

[MikeTheNative]

SA had a lot of territory in England's half. England were also losing a lot of collisions and were on the back foot, particularly up front. It would be a bit stupid to try to play from there especially when it's still the first half and they were not chasing the game yet. Kicking was the sensible option

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I thought Youngs kicking was terrible in the first half and really put us under pressure.

Its funny reading the Kiwi fans claiming we have a shot at winning this game. We were terrible in most areas against SA and made some terrible selection decisions. I'm sure Jones will make some more terrible selections and we will get smashed.

 

[ncurd]

Honestly no idea what was trying to accomplished with Youngs box kicking in the first half.

If playing for territory you'll get much more range and precision from fly-half. So why are we bothering with box kicks to do a poorer job?

If playing to compete well I can't remember one we did a good job of doing so.

I don't think we can praise someone for executing a rubbish plan.

 

[MikeTheNative]

If the game plan is to box kick, can you really blame the players? Shouldn't it be down to the coaches?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Youngs used to be such a threat ball in hand. That seems to have disappeared. If you don't keep defences guessing it makes their lives easier.

Scrum half is one of our biggest issues. They set the tempo for the whole team - might be the tiniest player on the pitch, but Faf makes such a difference for the Boks. Le Petite Générale as the French might say.

 

[Oliver Madden]

just hoping England don't get absolutely walloped. i'd be delighted with less than a 10 point defeat but I fear a loss by more than 20.

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

Honestly no idea what was trying to accomplished with Youngs box kicking in the first half.

If playing for territory you'll get much more range and precision from fly-half. So why are we bothering with box kicks to do a poorer job?

If playing to compete well I can't remember one we did a good job of doing so.

I don't think we can praise someone for executing a rubbish plan.

I disagree with this generally. You're not guaranteed to get better range or field position kicking from 10, why do you think most teams predominantly clear from box kicks in their 22? Less pressure on the kicker and you don't have to pass back an extra 10-15m.

In terms of the kicks that were contestable, there was at least one if not two where May tackled the catcher straight into touch meaning we won possession. I am not a fan of aimless kicks but given most of Young's were inside our 22 and clearing after sustained SA pressure, I'm not sure what else you would expect? Where do you think Farrell would be able to clear to kicking from his own try line?

This being said, if we kick badly against New Zealand they will punish us much more severely, so it is vitally important that Youngs and his chasers are on the same page.

My major gripe with Youngs is that he takes an age to get the ball away from the breakdown and his general game awareness seems non existent beyond the 4-5m around a ruck.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

i think we will be utterly pulverised in the first 40 and will then claw back a smidgen of dignity before going to pieces in the final 10.

 

[BPM]

For me Hepburn, George and Sinkler are all finishers. I don't think i've seen George or Sinkler have a good game for England when starting. So for me Moon, Hartley and Williams to start front row. Itoje and Kruis 2nd row with Lawes off the bench. Mercer simply won't start in a big match like the ABs so it will be Shields, Underhill (Curry if fit) and Wilson.

Sadly Youngs will probably start at 9 with Farrell at 10 even though Youngs is out of form and kicks possession away too often. I would stick with Te'o and Slade with Tuilagi coming off the bench. Slade is more of a 12 at test level for me but Tuilagi isn't fit enough to start and Marchant won't be in the squad to face the ABs. Even though he isn't suited to 15 we all know Daly will start there.

Finally May just has to start as our best winger and Ashton for Nowell too as Nowell lacks the speed of some wingers for although he is a workhorse.

I agree with almost all of this.

The only points I'd quibble with are around Sinckler and Daly.

I agree Sinckler is better as an impact sub, but he's had a few decent starts for England and I actually thought he was one of our better players against SA. He's never going to be an amazing scrummaging prop, but he worked incredibly hard, worked well as an auxiliary distributor (in the Mako vein) and made very few (if any?) mistakes. From a scrummaging point of view, it's also worth pointing out that Kitshoff is a very good player and their pack was always going to put us under pressure. It would be very harsh to blame our scrummaging woes solely on Sinckler.

Daly was undoubtedly poor on Saturday - particularly under a high ball. However, I think it was a case of him having a bad day rather than not being suited to playing at 15. He is not used to it and needs time to get up to speed, but if he cracks it, I think he could be a very good 15. If I'm 100% honest, I'd sooner see Brown on Saturday given the opposition, but I'd put Daly back at 15 for Japan and possibly Australia as I believe it's an experiment worth persevering with. I get where you're coming from but I do believe he will get there given time/exposure. I'd take a few iffy games if the end result is that we develop a much-needed successor to Brown.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

It would be very harsh to blame our scrummaging woes solely on Sinckler.

Very true, but its also clear that Sinckler isn't, and never likely to be, a top quality scrummager. And as long as that remains the case he should be bench at best.

On Daly. I'm not convinced by the prospect of him at full back at all. Saturday wasn't the first time he's struggled under the high ball - his red against Arg, admittedly from the wing, was from horribly misjudging a box kick. He's not the biggest, so his technique and judgement have to be spot on. But if Jones really thinks he's the answer he should be pressuring Pests to play him there week in, week out. Which they won't.

Come the key matches in the RWC my £5 says that Cole and Brown will start in these shirts.

 

[BluenoseKelv]

I agree with almost all of this.

The only points I'd quibble with are around Sinckler and Daly.

I agree Sinckler is better as an impact sub, but he's had a few decent starts for England and I actually thought he was one of our better players against SA. He's never going to be an amazing scrummaging prop, but he worked incredibly hard, worked well as an auxiliary distributor (in the Mako vein) and made very few (if any?) mistakes. From a scrummaging point of view, it's also worth pointing out that Kitshoff is a very good player and their pack was always going to put us under pressure. It would be very harsh to blame our scrummaging woes solely on Sinckler.

Daly was undoubtedly poor on Saturday - particularly under a high ball. However, I think it was a case of him having a bad day rather than not being suited to playing at 15. He is not used to it and needs time to get up to speed, but if he cracks it, I think he could be a very good 15. If I'm 100% honest, I'd sooner see Brown on Saturday given the opposition, but I'd put Daly back at 15 for Japan and possibly Australia as I believe it's an experiment worth persevering with. I get where you're coming from but I do believe he will get there given time/exposure. I'd take a few iffy games if the end result is that we develop a much-needed successor to Brown.

I never blamed Sinkler solely, Hepburn, Hartley and Sinkler isn't really as strong a front row as Moon, George and Williams in the scrum. However George as I said is an impact sub. I wouldn't mind trying Jack Singleton rather than Hartley I rate him highly.

In terms of Daly I just don't see him as a 15 and Brown, Watson are both ahead of him. Why Goode doesn't get used bemuses me unless I've missed something.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Why Goode doesn't get used bemuses me unless I've missed something.

Presumably you've missed all of his international caps?
Goode is fantastic for Sarries but has been sub par at very very best for England, and he's had more than enough chances to prove he can cut it an international level.

 

[MikeTheNative]

As a Wales fan, I wouldn't mid seeing him back in a England shirt for the 6 nations.

 

[BPM]

I never blamed Sinkler solely, Hepburn, Hartley and Sinkler isn't really as strong a front row as Moon, George and Williams in the scrum. However George as I said is an impact sub. I wouldn't mind trying Jack Singleton rather than Hartley I rate him highly.

In terms of Daly I just don't see him as a 15 and Brown, Watson are both ahead of him. Why Goode doesn't get used bemuses me unless I've missed something.

I agree Watson is ahead, but there's no guarantees he'll be back come the 6N and he also looked pretty poor in his last game for England at 15. Ireland's early try in that game came from a Sexton bomb that Brown probably would have dealt with.

Brown is past his best, but he is still our best and only out and out 15, considering Goode is never going to get the call. Unless that changes, Eddie doesn't have much choice but to experiment. If he didn't and Brown gets injured, we'd all be blaming him for not trying anyone else at 15.

 

[Yoshimitsu]

I agree Watson is ahead, but there's no guarantees he'll be back come the 6N and he also looked pretty poor in his last game for England at 15. Ireland's early try in that game came from a Sexton bomb that Brown probably would have dealt with.

Brown is past his best, but he is still our best and only out and out 15, considering Goode is never going to get the call. Unless that changes, Eddie doesn't have much choice but to experiment. If he didn't and Brown gets injured, we'd all be blaming him for not trying anyone else at 15.

It was interesting seeing Daly struggle. His interventions in the line were high impact and high energy. I was particularly impressed with his willingness to hit into contact hard. His pace is a weapon that can pay off and Brown hasn't got it and has never had it. Daly is class.

However, Daly's high ball technique was atrocious. To be fair most of South Africa's kicking was decent. But Daly's approach was under 13esque. Standing still in good position waiting for the ball to fall to him whilst the bok kick chasers had a run up and out jumped him. It happened more than once. That almost never happens with Brown. He may knock on but possession is rarely cleanly ceded. I hope Daly can improve but I suspect his red card. Vs arg has made him a bit conservative. At the highest level, that won't work.

 

[Which Tyler]

If only...
Pennell had opted to stay in the Premiership