[2018 6 Nations] Round 5 : England v Ireland (17/03/2018)

[curtbob7]

They also wouldn't be allowed to without said could being kicked out of PRL and having no-one to play with.
IF we were to go down that route (and I really hope we don't) then I can I it see it being even slightly viable if the bought say 5 clubs (probably from the Championship - to make Wessex, E&W Mercia, Northumbria & London), and asked to join the Pro 14 to create a GB&I League; and grabbed players as their existing contracts expired.
It would ruin the game in England though, the new clubs/franchises wouldn't be co petitive for a fair few years, there would be a hell of a struggle to secure players. I suspect the fans would take to it even less well than the Welsh fans have to their franchises.

No chance. The traditional clubs and their fans would all be massively against it.

Central contracts the only route. Sweeten it by RFU funding proper pitches at stadiums like Falcons and Allianz etc. Build better academy facilities across the country and play international games at Old Trafford and St James'.

 

[Pom in Exile]

More than just him, a lot of the rugby punditry is poor. Many England stories are written by Tom Fordyce, a Welshman with a clear axe to grind. Every English achievement he has twisted into the most negative way and every English failure he loves to highlight. He regularly looks at other sides and then tries to make a comparison to England, always in favour of the non-England side. It's got really tedious and yet we will constantly hear how pro-England the BBC is. Our main rugby writer hates England!

That explains a lot.

 

[Leinster Fan]

More than just him, a lot of the rugby punditry is poor. Many England stories are written by Tom Fordyce, a Welshman with a clear axe to grind. Every English achievement he has twisted into the most negative way and every English failure he loves to highlight. He regularly looks at other sides and then tries to make a comparison to England, always in favour of the non-England side. It's got really tedious and yet we will constantly hear how pro-England the BBC is. Our main rugby writer hates England!

Yeah but Inverdale tbf. The man can't stand the idea of England losing.

 

[Which Tyler]

No chance. The traditional clubs and their fans would all be massively against it.

Central contracts the only route. Sweeten it by RFU funding proper pitches at stadiums like Falcons and Allianz etc. Build better academy facilities across the country and play international games at Old Trafford and St James'.

Nothing other than the status quo will fly with fans.
Nothing that cedes (more) control to the RFU will fly with clubs.
Nothing that ceded (more) control to the clubs will fly with the RFU.

Your latter suggestion (for example) requires the RFU to spend more money, whilst earning (a hell of a lot) less - which leads to bankruptcy and the dismantling of the grass-roots game. And will be resisted strongly by fans, clubs, the RFU membership (the grass roots), and the RFU top-brass who will know that they can't afford that.

 

[curtbob7]

Nothing other than the status quo will fly with fans.
Nothing that cedes (more) control to the RFU will fly with clubs.
Nothing that ceded (more) control to the clubs will fly with the RFU.

Your latter suggestion (for example) requires the RFU to spend more money, whilst earning (a hell of a lot) less - which leads to bankruptcy and the dismantling of the grass-roots game. And will be resisted strongly by fans, clubs, the RFU membership (the grass roots), and the RFU top-brass who will know that they can't afford that.

Old Trafford isn't particularly a massive drop in revenue. St James a risk but if the RFU are serious about growing the game then this country needs to get on board first. We still only have two sides who average over 15K to games and viewing figures aren't exactly going through the roof.

 

[Which Tyler]

You lose at least 50% of revenue just by playing in someone else's stadium.
You typically lose advertising, you lose food and food and drink sales, you lose any sales your shop makes, and you pay a rental fee.

I agree that I'd like to see matches spread around the country; but you don't spend hundreds of millions of pounds on infrastructure to use 6 times a year, and go rent someone else's infrastructure for 2 of those 6. You certainly don't do that at the same time as increasing your overheads significantly.

 

[Amiga500]

Nothing other than the status quo will fly with fans.
Nothing that cedes (more) control to the RFU will fly with clubs.
Nothing that ceded (more) control to the clubs will fly with the RFU.

What do you deem the status quo to be?

Those specific clubs playing each other?


Its a pity for the good of the game that the IRB hadn't said, "yep, we'll hold the RWC2015 in England and RWC2019 in France and take a vastly reduced cut of the money, but all other proceeds must go to the unions buying >=51% ownership in every club."

 

[Amiga500]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43473255

Even the SRU have the wit to realise buying the clubs is a good idea.

Meanwhile, over to the lemmings at Twickenham...

 

[Which Tyler]

What do you deem the status quo to be?

Those specific clubs playing each other?


Its a pity for the good of the game that the IRB hadn't said, "yep, we'll hold the RWC2015 in England and RWC2019 in France and take a vastly reduced cut of the money, but all other proceeds must go to the unions buying >=51% ownership in every club."

How do you mean "What do you deem the status quo"? the status quo is no change.

Every club? there's about 1800 clubs in each country - you're also assuming that the owners are selling (they're not if it's the RFU asking; even less likely if the FFR).
You could argue that everyone has their price; but £60M (50% of WR's RWC guarantee) won't even get you half the Premiership. No way are Bath or Saracens (or Bristol) ever up for sale to the RFU - all have individual owners worth significantly more than the RFU; none like the RFU.
Then where do you propose WR make up the difference to their own coffers for giving half of their income for an entire decade? just bankrupt the smaller unions?

It's almost as if you think these unions (whether RFU, FFR or WR) have limitless supplies of cash just sitting around in bank accounts waiting to be spent; rather than spending every penny that comes in to them already. They do do things other than sitting their drinking Brandy; rubbing their hands with evil glee as they count their money.

 

[Amiga500]

How do you mean "What do you deem the status quo"? the status quo is no change.

So your saying the support of the average fan is dependent on who owns the club they support?

 

[Amiga500]

Then where do you propose WR make up the difference to their own coffers for giving half of their income for an entire decade? just bankrupt the smaller unions?

It's almost as if you think these unions (whether RFU, FFR or WR) have limitless supplies of cash just sitting around in bank accounts waiting to be spent; rather than spending every penny that comes in to them already. They do do things other than sitting their drinking Brandy; rubbing their hands with evil glee as they count their money.

(1) They survived without massive payouts in RWC2011.

(2) No, I don't expect any union could buy all (professional) clubs at face value. I do expect the value of the (professional) clubs that don't initially get bought to be depressed due to the changing competitive environment they are in.

 

[Which Tyler]

So your saying the support of the average fan is dependent on who owns the club they support?

No

(1) They survived without massive payouts in RWC2011.

(2) No, I don't expect any union could buy all (professional) clubs at face value. I do expect the value of the (professional) clubs that don't initially get bought to be depressed due to the changing competitive environment they are in.

(1) Barely; and they still had a big payment; and had to sandwhich it between 2 huge pay-outs

(2) Which splits the game again (eg1 Rugby League; eg2 Kerry Packer) - as discussed upthread.

 

[Lomu]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43451007

already posted but what an absolute plonker.

Also including Daly in his team of the tournament over Earls.

Firstly thanks for posting cos i missed it. Secondly people are gettin a little hung up on his phrasing. He lists 10 irish players in his team of the tournament. But i think he is referring to a world 15. For example beauden barrett instead of sexton... which is plausible... he is very complimentary also on the irish players so his wording is a little out of sync with his message. He was a top class player and is a solid pundit usually providing balanced and honest assessments of the 6N games. His frustration at the england set up and performances is clear in the article. Slightly ott reaction to an ad hoc comment.

On a side note best 6N players of all time per country:
Ireland: O Driscoll
England: Rory Underwood
Scotland: Townsend
France: Sella
Wales: Evans (Ieuan)
Italy: Parisse

Had to get it out of my system

 

[AM_Bokke]

Only in the two countries where the unions have allowed the clubs to dictate to them.

Yes, I understand that. But top players accept reduced compensation to play in union led countries.

It's not like the unions can afford them. They can't (in a market sense).

But unions are able to prioritize their best players for the highest revenue matches: internationals. Club based systems are out of whack in this regard.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

On a side note best 6N players of all time per country:
Ireland: O Driscoll
England: Rory Underwood
Scotland: Townsend
France: Sella
Wales: Evans (Ieuan)
Italy: Parisse

Had to get it out of my system

I've woken up in uber pedant mode. Only half of those ever played in the 6N, but if you mean the best players from current 6N countries to have played in the 5 or 6 Nations....

Sorry -

 

[Which Tyler]

I've woken up in uber pedant mode. Only half of those ever played in the 6N, but if you mean the best players from current 6N countries to have played in the 5 or 6 Nations....

Sorry -

I agree (without being sorry).
I love Ieuan , but I'd say he's still got the wrong Welshman - Gareth Edwards for me (JPR second choice)

 

[Lomu]

I've woken up in uber pedant mode.
Sorry -

Ooooohhhh you pedantic b*%#@%£
Would you be happier if i posted every name our beloved tournament has had since it began? Anyway im sure you got my jist... Threw Ieuan in over JPR, Bennett etc cos he played with proper emotion. Granted he was not technically as good a player as some of the Welsh legends like Edwards, Henson (lol) but he was the best to watch. Summed up by his f u celebration after his try v England. Almost threw Simon Geoghan in instead of BOD for same reason.

Love goin off topic

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

My favourite (for spurious reasons) and best lists:

Eng: Moore / Johnson
Wal: JPR / Edwards
Ire: BOD / BOD
Sco: Jeffrey / Armstrong
Fra: Champ / Blanco
Ita: Castro / Parisse

 

[Lomu]

Some good shouts there except for maybe in the Scots camp. Loved Moore as a player for similar reasons why i chose Evans. Also he is a great commentator and is rubbish at masking his emotions when England are playing poorly