[2018 6 Nations] Round 5 : England v Ireland (17/03/2018)

[dunney77]

Twickenham: 14:45 (Local Time)
ITV1/TV3

 

[dunney77]

Never too early.

Is this Ireland's time?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I think we'll win. No doubt I'll change my mind back and forth multiple times this week though. On current form I'm not sure I'd take any English player 1-10 and 13-15 over their Irish counterpart.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Do we have to have this thread?

Ringrose to part the English midfield and go in raw.

 

[MikeTheNative]

I was going to call an Stockdale intercept try but I don't think England would be able onto hold the ball long enough to get near to the side of the pitch.

 

[ncurd]

Unless miracles can happen in a week and they won't because we couldn't sort out the issues in 2 weeks (we were better I think, marginally), there is no way I can predict anything other than an Irish win.

Its not that I don't think England can't and won't bounce back by the sA tour its just 1 week against a great team that is wining is too big an ask, for anyone.

 

[dunney77]

I'm sure England can turn it on at home. It's not often you see them go backwards at Twickenham.

Ireland need to keep the ball in England's half, force the penalties and keep the scoreboard ticking.

Kicking has to be spot on to to nullify that back 3

 

[Amiga500]

Bad news. Courtney Lawes is out.

 

[McTallshort]

Not looking forward to this. Nothing worse than a smug self-righteous Irishman especially when they have put England to the sword but lifes a **** sandwich sometimes and you have to take a bite.

I said before the tournament the England players looked knackered and jaded and I think as the 6N has gone on they look worse. Contrast that with the Irish players who look fresh and confident then you have to draw the conclusion that EJ prep has been wrong.

Not sure I am even going to watch this. A farmer has asked me to shoot some pigeons on one of his fields and I imagine sitting in the pouring rain waiting for a wood pigeon to swing in close enough for me to miss it is preferable to a saint paddys day massacre.

oh hum

 

[Which Tyler]

I said before the tournament the England players looked knackered and jaded and I think as the 6N has gone on they look worse. Contrast that with the Irish players who look fresh and confident then you have to draw the conclusion that EJ prep has been wrong.

I've just typed this elsewhere; but it might as well go here; though I'm not sure how much is post-fact justification, how much is hope, and how much is genuine interpretation of events and comments.

I happen to think that fatigue IS playing a pretty big part.
Not only in performance on the pitch, but also affecting selection (fatigue increase risk of injury); but I think that Eddie is beasting the squad, not just before the tournie started, but also during it. And I think he's doing so deliberately.
I think Eddie is treating this 6N as a mock-RWC. He's piling the pressure on the players; he's using fallow weekends to beast them in training so that they're constantly fatigued for 8 weeks; he's refusing to bring in any players from outside of his core squad unless he absolutely has to. He's seeing how far he can push them before performances drop off. Hopefully, he'll use that information when developing his pre-RWC training camps.

I think he sees this tournie as comparatively disposable. He needed his first 2 years (all tournies) to get to know the players, for them to know him, to cut the dead wood, and to develop systems for these players [I think he's underestimating our players, but hey]. He needed wins to establish himself.
He needs 12 months leading up to the RWC to build up to it; when wins are again, all important to build confidence. This 6N, and possibly this summer in South Africa are his best opportunities (as in, the least consequences) to risk losing matches. I happen to think he's found the point at which performances drop off, and that he also underestimated the opposition - pretty much all of the opposition. I think he expected to be able to beast them hard enough for performances to drop; but that we'd still win all our matches except Ireland. Now it may be that he hadn't accounted for injuries, or that he hadn't accounted for resurgence from Italy, Scotland and France; or that he had and the gamble just hasn't paid off.

Of course, in spite of the above, I still think he's got his tactics wrong. Specifically I think the Prem has been reffing the breakdown differently to the Pro14 and Top14 competitions - which is down to the ref.s (it can hardly be a surprise that Barnes, Owens and Garces might lead their officials in slightly different directions at the breakdown); and coaches, have come up with different ways to handle the breakdown accordingly. However, it's also Eddie's fault for not spotting, and adapting to this. Fair enough in November; but after that, and most of the EPRC has been played out; he should have noted it, and changed his plan accordingly.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think that is giving Jones too much credit, I think it's much simpler, he has his core of favourites and is too stubborn to change them. He has put an over-emphasis on fitness and not enough on technical skill. We gain nothing from pushing the same group of older players to the limit and losing games from it, we would have gained more by resting them properly and rotating in younger prospects to see how they dealt with the pressure. The last year has been wasted because all the talent highlighted in Argentina has not been utilised since. That tour was little more than a side show filling out the numbers so he could again thrash his core players who hadn't gone with the Lions.

He has been playing by basic statistics which say you need an experienced squad to win whilst ignoring that the players with experience also need to be good. Cole is ****, no 2 ways about it. His main point was a strong scrum and he is not better than any alternatives there. Outside the scrum he is worse than useless, he is a liability and yet Jones persists with him. Why? He's not young, there isn't some hidden talent yet to be uncovered, he simply isn't good enough. He has the most caps though so he stays. The same again to a lesser degree with Hartley and his competition. Lock is ok and yet we are using an abundance of locks in the squad when we don't need to. Back row is the issue and yet is completely ignored. Pushing the team as hard as possible also doesn't explain not having a 3rd choice SH, I mean does any other top team do that?

No the current problem stems from Jones having his favourites, those favourites not being the best in their position and thrashing said favourites by making them work more for club and country than any other players in the world. It is unravelling and he MUST start rotating the squad or we are going to be in a really, really bad position next world cup.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I've just typed this elsewhere; but it might as well go here; though I'm not sure how much is post-fact justification, how much is hope, and how much is genuine interpretation of events and comments.

I happen to think that fatigue IS playing a pretty big part.
Not only in performance on the pitch, but also affecting selection (fatigue increase risk of injury); but I think that Eddie is beasting the squad, not just before the tournie started, but also during it. And I think he's doing so deliberately.
I think Eddie is treating this 6N as a mock-RWC. He's piling the pressure on the players; he's using fallow weekends to beast them in training so that they're constantly fatigued for 8 weeks; he's refusing to bring in any players from outside of his core squad unless he absolutely has to. He's seeing how far he can push them before performances drop off. Hopefully, he'll use that information when developing his pre-RWC training camps.

I think he sees this tournie as comparatively disposable. He needed his first 2 years (all tournies) to get to know the players, for them to know him, to cut the dead wood, and to develop systems for these players [I think he's underestimating our players, but hey]. He needed wins to establish himself.
He needs 12 months leading up to the RWC to build up to it; when wins are again, all important to build confidence. This 6N, and possibly this summer in South Africa are his best opportunities (as in, the least consequences) to risk losing matches. I happen to think he's found the point at which performances drop off, and that he also underestimated the opposition - pretty much all of the opposition. I think he expected to be able to beast them hard enough for performances to drop; but that we'd still win all our matches except Ireland. Now it may be that he hadn't accounted for injuries, or that he hadn't accounted for resurgence from Italy, Scotland and France; or that he had and the gamble just hasn't paid off.

I think this is fair enough although I'm not sure its a great approach in the modern game for the RWC. He'llalso still be very disappointed with Paris, maybe Edinburgh less so because the Scots were sublime. I think Schmidt is taking a different approach of trying to build a bigger squad, I think he has a larger pool of players that he trusts than Jones and it shows with Joe making less non-injury forced rotations in his squad. Larmour for McFadden a 23; Porter for Ryan at 18; McGrath in and back out again for Healy; Henderson, Toner and Ryan have been rotated; Marmion for McGrath; Conan in for Stander at 8 then onto the bench only to be replaced by Murphy all examples. Beyond that we're missing O'Brien, Ruddock, Conway and L McGrath (He didn't play) while losing others along the way.

I think Schmidt wants to get about ~35 players who he can slot in and out. Currently I count 31 with Tadhg Beirne, L McGrath, Joey Carbery and Jordan Larmour on their way. I reckon we'll drop a game or two in Australia through rotating a bit like we saw in South Africa a couple years ago which was a tour that would have been a huge long term success had it not been for Jackson's and Olding's **** up which happened only days later.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I think we'll win. No doubt I'll change my mind back and forth multiple times this week though. On current form I'm not sure I'd take any English player 1-10 and 13-15 over their Irish counterpart.

Really? Surely at least one of our locks, I'd say both.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Really? Surely at least one of our locks, I'd say both.

I think Ryan has been far better than Itoje this championship/season anyway. No doubt they're being hamstrung by the rest of their team but they're also a part of that while our rows have been exemplary.

 

[MikeTheNative]

I think Jamie George is better than Best. England's 2nd rows are probably around the same level as Ireland's.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

There's definitely English forwards better than their Irish counterparts but I did say "on current form" which isn't that crazy a claim, I think you could have said something similar about England before the reverse fixture last year.

 

[truthteller]

ireland will destroy them tbh 30-15. england are a mess

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Having serious PTSD flashbacks of last year
Game vs Ireland followed by UFC London
Same again this year

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

i hope Eddie goes with
1. Mako
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Kruis
5. Launchbury
6. Itoje
7. Robshaw
8. Haskell
9. Care
10. Farrell
11. Watson
12. te'o
13. JJ
14. Earle
15. Brown

 

[MikeTheNative]

i hope Eddie goes with
1. Mako
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Kruis
5. Launchbury
6. Itoje
7. Robshaw
8. Haskell
9. Care
10. Farrell
11. Watson
12. te'o
13. JJ
14. Earle
15. Brown

Are you wanting them to loose?