[2018 6 Nations] Round 5 : England v Ireland (17/03/2018)

[Amiga500]

Is it really allowing when the clubs outdate the union?

Yep.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Jeremy,

When you are arguing whether a player *might* not make it into a World XV, then by definition, its a given that player *is* world-class.

Whether they are the best or 2nd best in the world doesn't matter - if they are close enough for a reasonable argument, then they are world class.

Regards,

Me


[Anyone else feel its long past time the Beeb put him out to pasture. His opinions and insight into today's game is pretty woeful.]

More than just him, a lot of the rugby punditry is poor. Many England stories are written by Tom Fordyce, a Welshman with a clear axe to grind. Every English achievement he has twisted into the most negative way and every English failure he loves to highlight. He regularly looks at other sides and then tries to make a comparison to England, always in favour of the non-England side. It's got really tedious and yet we will constantly hear how pro-England the BBC is. Our main rugby writer hates England!

 

[Amiga500]

More than just him, a lot of the rugby punditry is poor. Many England stories are written by Tom Fordyce,

Indeed - and stories is the right term to use. Most of it is completely bereft of analyses.

About the only good journo (at least, that I am aware of) at the moment is Murray Kinsella.

OK, this might be difficult reading for an Englishman right now, but its just an example for you to compare to the quality of the other crap you see masquerading as "insight":
http://www.the42.ie/analysis-ireland-stander-try-england-schmidt-3910922-Mar2018/

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Is it really allowing when the clubs outdate the union?

At least 10 Irish clubs were out-date the IRFU.

 

[profitius]

The 1014 lads on YouTube are good. They go a bit over the top hyping players sometimes but they generally look at the positive.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

At least 10 Irish clubs were out-date the IRFU.

Regions have been around for like 15? years though, and they're the top level.

It's tongue in cheek, anyway - something needs to be changed in the English game.
******** all over clubs that have been around longer than the international game has is not the way though

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Regions have been around for like 15? years though, and they're the top level.

It's tongue in cheek, anyway - something needs to be changed in the English game.
******** all over clubs that have been around longer than the international game has is not the way though

Yeah, the regions have proven be unpopular, although popularity appears to be rising but if Leinster, La Rochelle Munster and/or Glasgow give Scarlets a couple of thumpings and they don't reach finals that could change. They have also lead to an erratic international side so far, although I'd argue that issue was initially down to teething problems and has since been down to Gatland.

We were #blessed that the provinces had a tournament dating back to 1946 ran by the IRFU, we could have been fuckered without it.

 

[Amiga500]

We were #blessed that the provinces had a tournament dating back to 1946 ran by the IRFU, we could have been fuckered without it.

We'd have been grand. The football and hurling has been running on the provincial lines long before that.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Is it really allowing when the clubs outdate the union?

Surely every union has clubs that predate them, otherwise why would the union have been formed in the first place (unless all of those clubs are now defunct or have merged with others)? Surely the issue is what happened in the intervening 150 or so years, specifically in the 80s and 90s. My impression is that while the RFU were burying their heads in the sand and resisting anything that "may encourage professionalism" (including league rugby and the RWC) other unions were becomming more professional in their administration of the game and I imagine planning for the inevitable arrival of professionalism. This allowed English clubs to steal a march on the RFU and seize control of the top level of the game, creating the current situation where by the RFU's cash cow doesn't belong to them. Nigel Melville appears to be well intentioned and has some decent ideas, but he's effectively trying to shut Pandora's box.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Surely every union has clubs that predate them, otherwise why would the union have been formed in the first place (unless all of those clubs are now defunct or have merged with others)? Surely the issue is what happened in the intervening 150 or so years, specifically in the 80s and 90s. My impression is that while the RFU were burying their heads in the sand and resisting anything that "may encourage professionalism" (including league rugby and the RWC) other unions were becomming more professional in their administration of the game and I imagine planning for the inevitable arrival of professionalism. This allowed English clubs to steal a march on the RFU and seize control of the top level of the game, creating the current situation where by the RFU's cash cow doesn't belong to them. Nigel Melville appears to be well intentioned and has some decent ideas, but he's effectively trying to shut Pandora's box.

Aye.

Something radical is going to be needed to affect any change... the longer we go on like this, the closer the clubs will come to copying English Football.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

God forbid the RFU becoming as spineless as the FA at protecting the National team.

 

[Amiga500]

Aye.

Something radical is going to be needed to affect any change... the longer we go on like this, the closer the clubs will come to copying English Football.

Could the RFU afford to buy any of the clubs?


If they were able to buy one or two, no doubt owners of existing clubs would be very annoyed and consider walking away. Which... if you consider the long term health of the game... might be no bad thing.

[as long as the RFU could afford the firesale price the clubs would then go at.]

 

[ratsapprentice]

No idea... I'd imagine not without getting someone (an individual, consortium or company) to help out.

It'd realistically be an all or nothing situation though.

 

[Amiga500]

No idea... I'd imagine not without getting someone (an individual, consortium or company) to help out.

It'd realistically be an all or nothing situation though.

Yep I doubt they could afford them all at "market" prices.

I was thinking more if they bought one or two that were in financial hardship it might scare the other owners into "giving up" and selling up.

OK, its not to the owners financial benefit, but might be to the benefit of the game as a whole.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I'd imagine the owners would try very hard to prevent them from doing that at all.... what they could do, I'm not sure, but they would be very, very hostile to it.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Aye.

Something radical is going to be needed to affect any change... the longer we go on like this, the closer the clubs will come to copying English Football.

A starter for 10 would be a restructure of the RFU. Little seems to have changed since Will Carling's famous "57 old farts" comment. The blazer / G+T jibes are made so often, they have become hackneyed, but are still apt as far as I can see. The organisation is unwieldy and has far too many people pulling in their own directions - the "old farts" acting in the interests of their respective CBs (even then, not necessarily in their member clubs' interests) and the board engaging in short-termism and doing whatever they think is the best for the next set of accounts. There appears to be little appreciation of the fact that the success of the national side in an important responsibility of the union and as a result, little strategic thinking going on in that regard (or any other). Like most here, I'm not a fan of Clive Woodward, but I appreciate what he did for England in terms of getting rid of the pervasive institutionalised thinking and running the national team like a professional international sports team. This impact seems to have been ignored or forgotten by the powers that be. Not that I'm saying a similar character could be a similar silver bullet now - things are beyond that, just offering an example of the institutionalised thinking that I perceive as a problem.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I don't see anyone with any great ambition steering the ship.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

How about the RFU purchase Rugby League teams and slowly convert League into Union.

 

[Which Tyler]

Could the RFU afford to buy any of the clubs?


If they were able to buy one or two, no doubt owners of existing clubs would be very annoyed and consider walking away. Which... if you consider the long term health of the game... might be no bad thing.

[as long as the RFU could afford the firesale price the clubs would then go at.]

They also wouldn't be allowed to without said could being kicked out of PRL and having no-one to play with.
IF we were to go down that route (and I really hope we don't) then I can I it see it being even slightly viable if the bought say 5 clubs (probably from the Championship - to make Wessex, E&W Mercia, Northumbria & London), and asked to join the Pro 14 to create a GB&I League; and grabbed players as their existing contracts expired.
It would ruin the game in England though, the new clubs/franchises wouldn't be co petitive for a fair few years, there would be a hell of a struggle to secure players. I suspect the fans would take to it even less well than the Welsh fans have to their franchises.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I always imagine the RFU to be very similar to the civil service from yes minister