[2017 Super Rugby] Round 11: Waratahs vs. Blues (06/05/2017)

[galumay]

I know it's hard to believe but aus need to start addressing it. What if I'm right? Aus are losing fans. No new players no next generation. nrl and afl will benefit.
Japan and Argentina replace the market and money that aus used to provide.
Aus shouldn't be saying it'll never happen and start acting acting like it will.
Answer is grassroots grassroots grassroots.

Its not just Aus that needs to address it, its NZ as well, there is too much at stake for our game. I dont think you are right about them being able to be "kicked out" thats simply not possible unless Super Rugby is completely dissolved. You are totally correct about the flow to NRL & AFL.

I dont think there is any way Japan or Argentina will replace the market and money that Aus provide, the Japan experiment has been an abject failure and the Argie won is looking pretty shakey too, neither have the sort of TV or sponsorship markets for Rugby that Aus has.

I dont think Australian Rugby is denying there is a crisis in the game, but if NZ dont realise the crisis directly threatens their future then they are naive.

While grassroots funding and development is important, unless there is some sense of actual competion and possibility of a genuine contest at the Super and International level then no kids will be interested in playing anyway. That is why the problem belongs to NZ as much as it does to Aus & SA.

 

[mania]

Its not just Aus that needs to address it, its NZ as well, there is too much at stake for our game.

I don't understand what nz is supposed to do. Aus' issue is lack of domestic pathways from school upwards.
League have awesome pathways for their kids.
Sun wolves are doing better than rebels did. They won their first game before force and rebels did. And they bring a huge tv market. Same asjaguares's who have more points than brumbies
And you're wrong about grassroots. Aus throws too much money at the top of the pyramid instead of the base. Nz's secret is its grass roots.

 

[galumay]

I don't understand what nz is supposed to do. Aus' issue is lack of domestic pathways from school upwards.
League have awesome pathways for their kids.
Sun wolves are doing better than rebels did. They won their first game before force and rebels did. And they bring a huge tv market. Same asjaguares's who have more points than brumbies
And you're wrong about grassroots. Aus throws too much money at the top of the pyramid instead of the base. Nz's secret is its grass roots.

Ok, well do nothing then and see what happens. I suspect it will mean the end of Super Rugby.

One thing NZ could do would be look at an integrated provincial comp with a blending of Mitre 10 and NRC, the complete lack of any effective club or provincial comp in Australia is one of the biggest reasons we cant compete at the Super or International level. We have the money and potential TV audience, you guys have the quality of competition. Another thing NZ can do is push for a significant reduction in Super Rugby teams, maybe back to 3 from NZ, SA & AUS. There are probably many other things they COULD do, but everyone seems content to just fiddle round the edges and not really tackle the issue as one that needs everything being put on the table and some creative thinking about solutions.

The pathways are there, kids just dont want to play a game which is dying through lack of competition. Throwing more money at grassroots rugby wont fix the problems, NZ's secret is there is effectively only one code of football, and you dominate the world at every level.

Sunwolves are, like the Jaguares, essentially a national team, you cant really compare them to a 4th or 5th Aussie franchise in a Comp that has exanded way beyond its capacity. The inclusion of those 2 teams is part of the problem with Super Rugby, not the solution.

I hope I am wrong and Rugby survives this crisis, maybe you are right and NZ shouldnt worry about it and just continue on flogging Aussie & SA sides (as well as the SW's & Jaguares), after all Diet Rugby has survived with really only one country that plays it as a primary sport and relentlessly flogs everyone else - thinking about it that might be the solution in reverse, we could have one Super Rugby team, the Aussie Warriors and SA could play a team or 2 in the Northern Hemisphere and 17 NZ Super teams could play a premiership comp! The Sunwolves & Jaguares could join in for a game every year or so in a "World Cup"

 

[mania]

Ok, well do nothing then and see what happens. I suspect it will mean the end of Super Rugby.

so when in any of this does aus and aru start taking any responsibility? Where's all the millions that aru has squandered? Why does nz have to save aus rugby?
After 120 years of rugby where is your grassroots? After over 20 years of super rugby profit what has aru achieved? Where's all the money that was spent on leagees? How many millions was wendsllSailor and mattRogers paid?
ITM cup is our domestic comp. domestic. Letting aus join would kill it and still u would have no pathways for your kids. why are u against grassroots? It's the same shtty attitude the aru have and why the next gen are going to nrl and afl.
Nz didn't get aus rugby into this mess.
And your wrong about super. The way aus teams are playing super would be better off without aru involvement.
Super isn't all about aus. There's still sa, Argentina, Japan and any others new markets in the future.
I'd love to see aus be competitive again but it's not within nz's power to fix aus rugby. U guys have to look within yourselves to fix what's wrong.
Imo grow your grassroots to save aus rugby.

 

[mania]

And I didn't say nz shouldn't worry about aus rugby. We're concerned and don't want to lose the great rivalry and history we've shared. But aus have fix it. Spend money on the foundation of aussie rugby. The next generation is the most important factor.

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

Good game for the Ioane boys, sloppy 2nd half from the Blues but the gap in class was obvious, and that first half was enough for a reasonably comfy win.
Did anyone catch what was wrong with SBW? I saw him go off but didn't hear much else as was switching between the boxing. It didn't seem serious from what I saw?

 

[galumay]

so when in any of this does aus and aru start taking any responsibility? Where's all the millions that aru has squandered? Why does nz have to save aus rugby?

I think we are just going round in circles, as I said, do nothing and suffer the consequences.

You keep talking about 'grassroots' but the reality is its been eaten away by problems you dont have - the main one being 4 major national codes of footy, 3 of them vastly more popular and much higher participations rates than rugby - very few kids are attracted to play a code that is so minor, and now that we are so uncompetitive its even worse.

Its also why Rugby chose to pay elite athletes to leave other codes and come to rugby, there simply isnt the player depth to be competititve and without some sense of being competitive you cant grow the 'grassroots', catch 22.

Super Rugby isnt all about AUS and SA, but you wont have a Super Comp the way its going, how long do you think the TV rights will have any value with neither AUS or SA competitive? We both fall and you think a Japanese team and a South American team can save it for you? You are dreaming. As i said you will end up like diet rugby with another level of domestic competition.

I have never said that the ARU shouldn't shoulder blame for some of the decisions that have created the issues, and that they shouldnt be at the front of trying to fix it, just that NZ have to realise the threat that the demise of AUS & SA rugby presents to the sport as a whole and they will have to play a part in fixing it if they want it to survive.

We both may be wasting our breath talking about it, because its quite possible the problems simply have no solution, maybe in the reality of now AUS & SA will not be able to be competitive ever again, maybe the world has changed too much. The grassroots of NZ dominance lie in some long forgotten quirk of history, where what was a fairly minor ball sport everywhere else in the world became NZ's number 1 sport almost to the exclusion of all others, this allowed the game to permeate the culture and largely become a part of every day life for most Kiwis. I have travelled the world a lot and never seen another country where a sport was so engrained in the society and culture - its become part of the kiwi identity.

Its one of the things I love about NZ and why I keep going back there, part of my banging on about this so much is not because i care what happens to rugby in Australia - i am rational enough to know thats an irrelevance for most aussies - its my concern for NZ.

 

[nero]

Good game for the Ioane boys, sloppy 2nd half from the Blues but the gap in class was obvious, and that first half was enough for a reasonably comfy win.
Did anyone catch what was wrong with SBW? I saw him go off but didn't hear much else as was switching between the boxing. It didn't seem serious from what I saw?

After doing his usual 'great run...mistake, excellent pass...mistake' he went off after failing a concussion test.

 

[mania]

we are going around in circles and youre putting words into my mouth
for starters nz isnt doing nothing. we're developing our rugby thru grassroots and growing players. we're setting an example u guys arent seeing
grassroots is the secret. dont do it and u deserve to fail. kids are the future of any sport. your attitude is to attract big name players is wrong and a waste of money. create the depth itll take 5 years for it to bear fruit.
also not once have i said that we would go without SA. super could survive without aus but not the saffa's their decline is temporary and they have the depth and structures to fix it. their issues are political. u keep mentioning sa and aus but im just talking about aus.
i could fix aus' issues with $5mil a season, which is pittance compared to what ARU spend on over paying themselves.
u have a very narrow view of sports in nz. rugby isnt the be all and end all. we play lots of other sports believe it or not but whatever suits your argument.
i care about aus rugby. i grew up watching greats, greegan, larkham, poidevan, willieO, chrisLatham. but in the lasty 10-15 years ive seen aru throw good money after bad on league players and then a 4th and 5th super team that u guys never deserved or could support in the first place.
the fruits of the 5 teams is so obvious yet aus cant see it and still insist on keeping them.
wales lost there mojo in the 70's and went from being a rugby super power to what they are now. no one then thought it could happen and the same thing is happening to aus.
lose the next generation and aus rugby is dead. super still has 2 out of 3. SA and NZ to date are still the better countries at playing rugby. aus unfortunately are declining and aru is doing very little about it. not anyone elses problem to fix cept your own.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Collins has played every game and the Blues sit at the bottom of the NZ conference.... Not exactly a winning formula.

Thats a pretty crap statement.
They are at the bottom, yet again, but they are a 'whole lot closer' than they were under Kirwan, Lam or Nucifora. Some of the games against the other Kiwi franchises have been genuinely close and nail biting. Thats a big step up from being the easy beats for the last 6 years. Put their position into context and sure, they're not good enough against the other Kiwi franchises, but they are getting closer, and the improvement is obvious. I'm starting to see something of a serious turn around for the Blues. They have been so erratic in their away form over the last 6 years, even in a time where we are witnessing a demise in the Aussie teams form, it's still a big result for the Blues. On paper at least, the Tah's are no slouches and when they get go forward ball they can pile on the points as they did in the second half, but the Blues fought hard and gave Tana a performance they can carry away with pride, and get ready to greet the Cheetahs.

Nanai is a far better player and is in far better form. Not starting him makes no sense. There's clearly something else going on there, maybe it's a training thing like you said. Who knows...

Other folks don't feel the same way about Nanai as you do, they see him as flashy because he is exciting to watch but his defensive mindset isn't as sharp or focussed as his attacking one, so Tana sees him as a great impact player and cover for injuries.
Games are generally won or lost up front and when kickers are on song, or off form. Nanai isn't going to make a lot of difference to overall performance or results, he's just one player and he wouldn't have changed the games agaisnt the Kiwi franchises.
The Blues have plenty on attack already.
Its their defence that has been the issue for closing games out and keeping them closed.
Taking out the two top Aussie teams in a week, both away from home, and beating the Tah's for the first time in Sydney since 2003 is no mean feat for a once great team that is trying to claw it's way back from the abyss.
I'm stoked with the last two results. I treasure them after the last 6 seasons.
Showing a winning consistency away from home is an excellent progression to build onto for the next season.
Now they have to keep the roll on for the Cheetahs game.
There is nothing the Blues can do if the Highlanders keep winning, except keep winning themselves and put more distance between themselves and the Brumbies in terms of points difference. Besides, I'm under no illusion that this year, if the Blues did nick a finals spot, it wouldn't see them get very far.

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

I know the Blues are doing well and I'm very happy to see it... that's got nothing to do with my point... I just think that Nanai deserves to start. That's all lol.

 

[The Jones Boy]

I'm not saying he doesn't deserve a start.
What I'm saying is, it's hard to change a winning team, and it's also hard to change a team that is improving even in defeat.
Maybe it's the defensive element, because he's still training with the team and he's on the bench.
More than we see of Ranger.

 

[BobbyM]

Mania, galumay - I've read you guys go back and forth and for what it's worth you're both right. Australia will struggle to be competitive for as long as the ARU aren't developing their grass roots club network. They need this to improve the ability I attract young talent into the game. Poaching NRL players helps the national side, but I struggle to see any causality between doing that and getting more kids into the game. There's scant evidence of it having an effect.

The other country where I think we see Rugby being so engrained in the culture is Wales; and for a country of their size they've over-performed throughout their history, as NZ do now. You compare the successes over time of Wales compared to say Ireland, and you can see how important it is to have your sport number 1. It is only reasonably recently that Ireland have started being competitive with the top sides.

So Australia I feel have 2 routes to go down; the English (where a sub-set of population based on "class" is channeled into a sport) or the French (where it's more regionally focused, with places like the Basque Country having a strong rugby culture.) I'm not particularly close to Australian culture so wouldn't know which could be more successful.

Yes they can look to NZ and their grassroots system but it's apples and oranges in terms of the situation that is faced. Options like an integrated Mitre 10 would be a great addition and help the club level game in Australia of course but it's not going to be enough in isolation.

 

[Larksea]

entertaining game.
was a shame to see SBW go off with HIA but he did look more comfortable. Made some really good tackles, some strong hit ups and one trademark offload.

Very big game from the Ioane Brothers. maybe Rieko is just better suited on the wing. He had that barnstormer first game then has struggled a bit at 13.
Akira was even better IMO. hes kinda struggled a bit this season but was excellent seems to be back closer to his best the last couple of weeks.

It does seem a shame to bench Nanai but Collins has been good, and hit style seems to be a good ingredient in the Blues backline. This wasn't his best game but I can see why he has been a regular starter at 15. Then it just becomes crowded with Nanai, Duffie, SBW, Moala & Ioane filling 11-14

 

[smartcooky]

Wales lost there mojo in the 70's and went from being a rugby super power to what they are now. no one then thought it could happen and the same thing is happening to aus.
lose the next generation and aus rugby is dead. super still has 2 out of 3. SA and NZ to date are still the better countries at playing rugby. aus unfortunately are declining and aru is doing very little about it. not anyone elses problem to fix cept your own.

I don't think Wales lost their mojo as early as the 1970's. They had a 70% win/loss ratio throughout that decade, losing losing only 11 matches (and that includes two losses to NZ by only three points and one point respectively. They also won the Five Nations seven times in that period, including three Grand Slams and a Triple Crown. Things went downhill for them in the next 20 years, with their win ratio dropping to about 50% and winning the Five nations only twice, but what pushed Welsh rugby into decline is the very thing that rejuvenated NZ rugby... regionalisation.

The creation in 2003 of the Welsh Regions, Scarlets, Ospreys, Dragons and Blues (there was a fifth, Celtic Warriors, at the beginning which went ***s up after only one year) has been an abject disaster for Welsh Rugby at all levels of the game, from the Elite end right down to grassroots. Once powerful, traditional Welsh clubs like Bridgend, Pontypridd, Pontypool, Maesteg and Neath have been consigned to lower grades.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Wales never lost their mojo in the 1970's, what rubbish.
Wales were an awesome team through the 60's and 70's, Phil Bennett was a pure pleasure to watch. Gareth Davies was dynamite.
I remember Wales were a spent force in 1983 and from then they were in the wilderness until they had Kiwi coaches in the late 90's and early noughties, then they had a massive revival.