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[2017 Rugby Championship] Round 2: Argentina v South Africa (26/08/2017)

I think you point out a few things to keep in mind, yes. On top of the Pumas' tries being opportunistic and avoidable (Coetzee taking the kick, Kriel taking the kick off) and the intercept off of a forced pass from Hougaard (which I count as having should been a try bar hernandez's brain fart/ poor execution) you could also add two more tries for us if Kolisi's pass was a bit more in line and Hougaard didn't force that pass for the intercept and even the one time we were in good position where Kriel couldn't hold on. The thing is a lack of accuracy. The positive is we can work on that and this side is still young. What it tells me though is there are players who aren't overcoming their issues. I still say drop Hougaard and Rhule and move Jesse Kriel to the bench. Those players just have too high an error rate to make up for their positives. Coetzee had a poor game but it was one poor game from him whereas he is usually solid while the players I mentioned have these issues on a continual basis.

For me;
- Rhule, + Lleyds/Combrinck
- Hougaard, + Vermaak
ASAP
Jesse Kriel on final chance. There are a number of players pushing for the center berth and I still say moving Serfontein to 13 is a legit option.

Geez, bit harsh on Jesse Kriel aren't you? he was our form player in the French series, and did nothing wrong in the first test against Argentina. This past weekend he babysit Rhule. Poor old Kriel and Serfontein had to defend 2 extra channels as Jantjies and Rhule were a bit lazy at making tackles.
 
I think you point out a few things to keep in mind, yes. On top of the Pumas' tries being opportunistic and avoidable (Coetzee taking the kick, Kriel taking the kick off) and the intercept off of a forced pass from Hougaard (which I count as having should been a try bar hernandez's brain fart/ poor execution) you could also add two more tries for us if Kolisi's pass was a bit more in line and Hougaard didn't force that pass for the intercept and even the one time we were in good position where Kriel couldn't hold on. The thing is a lack of accuracy. The positive is we can work on that and this side is still young. What it tells me though is there are players who aren't overcoming their issues. I still say drop Hougaard and Rhule and move Jesse Kriel to the bench. Those players just have too high an error rate to make up for their positives. Coetzee had a poor game but it was one poor game from him whereas he is usually solid while the players I mentioned have these issues on a continual basis.

For me;
- Rhule, + Lleyds/Combrinck
- Hougaard, + Vermaak
ASAP
Jesse Kriel on final chance. There are a number of players pushing for the center berth and I still say moving Serfontein to 13 is a legit option.

While I may also have a few reservations of certain players, I think the continuity in selection should be the way forward. Siya Kolisi has been a revelation this year and quite easily front-runner for SA POTY. This statement being in stark contrast to my opinion of him last season before it all went to s***ts for the Boks.

Fair to say the backs didn't have much to show for, except for Jantjies - who didn't bottle it after missing 2 early kicks. The ability in which to convert defense into a attack from anywhere on the pitch has become vital in generating attacking momentum and here is where I feel the backs could learn from our forwards.
 
Geez, bit harsh on Jesse Kriel aren't you? he was our form player in the French series, and did nothing wrong in the first test against Argentina. This past weekend he babysit Rhule. Poor old Kriel and Serfontein had to defend 2 extra channels as Jantjies and Rhule were a bit lazy at making tackles.

I wouldn't agree. I'd have Serfontein and Kolisi as 50/50 for MVP and then I'd have a hell of a lot of players in ahead of Kriel who finished his opportunities well but I mentioned I have reservations and I still do. I won't climb in too harshly about his defense as Rhule puts a lot of undue pressure on his centers and cover defense. I am still of the opinion we have better options even if we have to move Serfontein to 13 to get them in.

While I may also have a few reservations of certain players, I think the continuity in selection should be the way forward. Siya Kolisi has been a revelation this year and quite easily front-runner for SA POTY. This statement being in stark contrast to my opinion of him last season before it all went to s***ts for the Boks.

Fair to say the backs didn't have much to show for, except for Jantjies - who didn't bottle it after missing 2 early kicks. The ability in which to convert defense into a attack from anywhere on the pitch has become vital in generating attacking momentum and here is where I feel the backs could learn from our forwards.

Continuity is good if its positive but do we really want to continue to have to make up for Rhule out wide and have Hougaard crab across the line before delivering hospital passes to those outside him? Aus are gonna make us pay on the wing. France and Argentina have let us off lightly and we are fooling ourselves if we think we can carry a wing who refuses to tackle indefinately.

I have been really impressed by Jantjies. Especially with Hougaard inside him giving him that little bit less time. I agree we can afford to carry players who have in the past shown what they can do. I just don't think Hougaard has a positive track record at 9 and Rhule's record on defence has been dire vs France and in SR so that is really all we can expect.
 
I wouldn't agree. I'd have Serfontein and Kolisi as 50/50 for MVP and then I'd have a hell of a lot of players in ahead of Kriel who finished his opportunities well but I mentioned I have reservations and I still do. I won't climb in too harshly about his defense as Rhule puts a lot of undue pressure on his centers and cover defense. I am still of the opinion we have better options even if we have to move Serfontein to 13 to get them in.

Fair enough, I get your point. I wouldn't mind if RJvR is brought in at 12/13 and combine with Serfontein at the expense of Kriel. But I won't replace Kriel with DDA or Mapoe. And if Rhule perhaps gets booted and replaced by a better defensively sound winger, I think Kriel would perform better too...


Continuity is good if its positive but do we really want to continue to have to make up for Rhule out wide and have Hougaard crab across the line before delivering hospital passes to those outside him? Aus are gonna make us pay on the wing. France and Argentina have let us off lightly and we are fooling ourselves if we think we can carry a wing who refuses to tackle indefinately.

I have been really impressed by Jantjies. Especially with Hougaard inside him giving him that little bit less time. I agree we can afford to carry players who have in the past shown what they can do. I just don't think Hougaard has a positive track record at 9 and Rhule's record on defence has been dire vs France and in SR so that is really all we can expect.

Yeah, Hougie had a torrid time, and wasn't aided by the referee's lack to blow up the Argies for taking him out at the rucks. Jantjies though did good and poor things (yet again). Missing 2 kick right in front of goal is inexcusable. Some of his tactical kicking was pointless, and only 1 of his little dabs over the argies head's worked, the rest were way too deep and got easily snatched up.
 
I don't see AC backing Paige to start at 9 anytime soon. I quite liked his service, but he threw a few flat passes that did more damage than good imo (reminiscent of the "old" boks' one-off runner fiasco), and he had a few scrappy moments juggling the ball or being put under pressure by the Pumas.

Hougie has proven he has what it takes... to come off the bench. I'd say he had a good game defensively. Alot of people saying that Hougie and Jaintjies made it work etc, but I feel that Hougaard took Jaintjies out of the game too much, just feel that if the ball went from ruck > 9 > 10 in the first quarter at least, we would've had much more tactical options and a smoother game. Don't get me wrong, his blindside plays and quick darts are most welcome, but when you do decide to send it down the line, start with your 10 rather than throwing it Willy nilly in the midfield (a few dummy runners ended up with the ball and made it look good when they reached contact) and there was a distinct lack of cut out passes at certain times, which Ross and Elton tend to favour to get the backline firing. Also, there was a linking element missing between 9 & 10 which DID hurt us imo. Not saying that a lack of synergy between 9 and 10 is Gokarts fault, but I do think a guy like Vermaak could do the job better and give us a less shakey platform to start and build the game on, then we bring in Hougie to light a fire under the guys. Lastly, a scrummy taking steps before service is just amateur imo.
1. It cuts out the space out wide like a drifting attacker.
2. It telegraphs intent and direction to the defenders.
3. It allows the defender to read a flat pass and intercept.
4. Service takes longer and when you have a team that flirts with the offside line it puts the receiving player under pressure.
Cronje and Jaintjies were just much more clinical, and you tend not to focus on Ross imo because he gets it done rather than sticking out by delegating tactical decisions to 10 a lot more

We all know to a degree what Hougie is capable of but let's not pretend he is without flaws (that can be easily corrected imo, which is why it's frustrating). My logic is that these qualities suits an "impact" player much more than a starter, he can make a difference off the bench better than the others could and perhaps the others could start the game better than he could. I think a replacement became his "traditional role" for a reason, HM could've started him when FDP was unavailable but chose Pienaar iirc, who didn't have too many great games and that's was where Hougie made the difference. It is what it is, Cronje should be in doubt for the Aussie test because torn ankle ligaments takes 6 weeks + to heal and rebuild strength iirc, I haven't seen any word on how long he'll be out for? Anyways ranting aside, I doubt AC will play it differently against the Aussies, so I hope Hougie will be more settled into his role in the team by then and has a ripper.

I enjoyed Jesse Kriel's contributions this game, he still has what it takes to be a bok centre imo. Serfontein had a good game defensively but I still question his attacking pedigree of late, but perhaps he is still a better option than Kriel if we're talking about bringing in RjvR to the team.

Our forwards had a good game, you can't really ask for more can you? Scrums were solid, Lineouts were functioning well (although Marx sure can take his time to feed), and it was great to see the intent to contest the lineouts from Mostert and Etzebeth. Kolisi is on another level entirely, he is an amazing player, love his hard work and passion. Just look at the way he celebrates scoring, puts it all into the game.

I didn't think that Jaintjies had what it takes to be a bok 10, but under JA I think he has gained a lot more maturity in his play. Sure he's missed some important kicks but I think he deserves a bit more credit then he has gotten thus far. I wouldn't be comfortable bringing in another starting 10 at this stage.

I rate Coetzee, but I think he has been very safe an perhaps not at his Lions best and we should be exploring options at 15, we have some great fullbacks, couldn't hurt to give them some time to show what they can do. His yellow card was deserved and his actions were totally unnecessary and uncalled for.

I'm loving the replacement trio of Kitsoff, JLDP and PSDT, when they come on the defensive urgency raises and they make chasing a score much more difficult, and all can punch big holes in attack.

Rhule is a defensive liability and the Aussies are going to exploit that every chance they get. That being said, he has improved and is putting in plenty of effort into his game on attack

The officiating was just terrible this game, and seeing Pascal and Roman discussing calls (in English rather than French for some reason) was just harrowing as the outcome becomes more and more random. I wish WR/SANZAR would just get real and address the French refs' lack of control over the game, or just stop appointing them to these fixtures FFS. It seems clear to me they have more than adequate knowledge of the laws but lack the ability to marshal players and reign in bad play, as well as repeat infringers which leads to an increasingly scrappy and unlawful game until cards start flying where as Owens or Peyper nip that kak in the bud asap. We cannot ignore the differences in the game as played in France compared to the SH in terms of officiating any longer either. More than ever we need refs that keep players on the right side of the law rather than refs who apply the law with sanctions and penalties etc in the interests of the contest. Proactive & consistent rather than reactive and unbalanced.

I'm glad that grass cutters are being properly outlawed finally, no doubt in my mind that it's a dangerous tackle, with potential to end a career as knees tend not to bounce back after being injured in my experience.

All in all, not a bad outing, the boks are really impressing me with their will. The Lionesque way with which they keep their heads up even when they're against it, and the ability to score tries, retain ball, offload successfully, contest the set piece, break lines, and counter attack at the right moment. It's a far cry from 07 etc, but you have to admit where this team can end up if they continue to build an play in this fashion is a sweet sweet prospect. I'll take a win in Salta in any fashion, I was expecting a slow slog of a game. I think the Pumas really need to reconsider their selection policy when you have players like Facundo Isa available to you.

IMO the Pumas suffered from not knowing which game plan they were supposed to be following, it seemed that in the early game, when kicks were returned and some went out on the full they gave up with their tactical kicking plan. I think benching Sanchez was a mistake tbh, he could've applied pressure much better Hernandez IMO. Creevy was disappointing, I felt that he didn't do his duty properly as a captain by not talking to the ref and not keeping his players disciplined. I enjoy the way Tuculet plays rugby, felt like he was alone in trying to generate something special at times with regards to the backline. Lavanini, he needs some time away from the squad, he is just too much of a liability imo.

Edit: Apologies for the wall of text, this post got out of hand.
 
Continuity is good if its positive but do we really want to continue to have to make up for Rhule out wide and have Hougaard crab across the line before delivering hospital passes to those outside him? Aus are gonna make us pay on the wing. France and Argentina have let us off lightly and we are fooling ourselves if we think we can carry a wing who refuses to tackle indefinately.

I have been really impressed by Jantjies. Especially with Hougaard inside him giving him that little bit less time. I agree we can afford to carry players who have in the past shown what they can do. I just don't think Hougaard has a positive track record at 9 and Rhule's record on defence has been dire vs France and in SR so that is really all we can expect.

Well we could see AC them switching things up a bit for the Australasian tour.

Speaking of which, the area of more importance which springs to mind is that of the loosetrio combination and who wears 8. While Cassiem has been working hard on the pitch, I still feel we are lacking an 8 with a presence at the back. However, I am not alluding to JldP having to wear 8, I prefer sticking him to the role off the bench.
 
For a change I have to agree with Rob Houwing in this article:

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Springboks/boks-stay-brittle-in-the-back-three-20170828

Well most of it.

If I was Australia, I'd be picking someone like Nayaravoro to play against Rhule and just keep on feeding him the ball...

Haha, you don't even need the bulk of Nayaravoro to scare off Rhule though. If I were Cheika I'd simply pick my fastest man and get the ball to him ASAP (with the rest fixing the inside man of course along the way) and have him run at Rhule . I say my fastest man because I am not at all worried about Rhule on defense and rather want to beat the cover defense.
 
Given the squad, although there are some players I would not have picked, the only glaring selection mistake is Rhule, Combrinck is just so much better, it should be a complete no brainer.
 
Most of you are very over critical of the Springboks. I mean they scored 40 points against Argentina in Argentina and in doing so got a bonus point. Thats pretty good IMO.
Yes there was mistakes but a sign of a good team is if you can win even on a bad day.
Aussies should not think that because they ran the All blacks close that they are now suddenly contenders. We wont know until Australia plays South Africa home and away.
Personally i think the All Blacks is suffering from a dip in form and this has made the Wallabies seem better than they are.
I think we will easily beat Australia at home and then it will be a tight game in Australia.
Heck for all we know Argentina is also playing very well and just came second to a better South Africa. They might give the wallabies a run for their money. I predict for Argentina to win Australia in ARG especially considering the fact that they will be desperate for a home win.

Hougaard did not immediately distribute the ball when he got to the rucks in this game. Instead he picked it up and tried to run it a bit pulling in multiple defenders near the rucks before passing, opening up some team mates in the process. Yes he made a few mistakes but man he was not nearly as bad as people are claiming. Id start him again in our next match. We South Africans are too quick to cast players away for the pettiest of things (Faf de Klerk, Francois Steyn, Sarel Pretorius ,Reinach ,Bismarck du Plessis, Beast ,Coenie Oosthuizen, Willie le Roux) All these guys are quality players who gets exiled and vilified by their own national fans.

I agree on all counts with Hougaard from what little I've seen, and particularly from this game. He is in the mold of Faf, or Scotland's Ali Price. Pick the ball from the ruck earlier and make your decision as you take your first couple of steps, giving yourself the option to snipe.

That isn't always better than the slower, more deliberate style of a Greig Laidlaw or Ross Cronje. You make more mistakes that way. But if done correctly you have the defence on the back foot more and give your backs more chance of attacking a crooked defensive line.

Jantjies and the Lions both prefer that style of scrum half in my opinion - as seen in the SR final when the scrum half was changed. A large part of Jantjies' game is running, like his move for his try in this game. If you have a scrum half taking a second or two before passing it then Jantjies gets less chance to that and probably less chance to try his chip kicks against an out of position fullback.

Of course, a truly top flight fly half can work well with both styles, and I don't think Jantjies can. Plus you'd think he'd be better with a Lions teammate. Tricky decision for AC.
 
Jessie Kriel made the Planet Rugby Team of the Week for round 2.
I sometimes wonder if those guys actually watch the game or just go off stats though. He might even actually deserve it though as IMO none of the 13s stood out by a whole bunch.
 
Of course, a truly top flight fly half can work well with both styles, and I don't think Jantjies can. Plus you'd think he'd be better with a Lions teammate. Tricky decision for AC.

This! It shouldn't matter who we pick as halfback pairing, they should both be firing when they get on the field.

But it seems like Elton can only play well with Cronje and De Klerk. When he was teamed up with Hougaard, and last year at stages with Paige, there wasn't any fluency.
 
I sometimes wonder if those guys actually watch the game or just go off stats though. He might even actually deserve it though as IMO none of the 13s stood out by a whole bunch.

I thought Crotty was as effective as ever, guess Kriel got the nod based on the Boks better defensive showings, they were the only team who didn't let in 5 tries over the weekend.
 
I thought Crotty was as effective as ever, guess Kriel got the nod based on the Boks better defensive showings, they were the only team who didn't let in 5 tries over the weekend.

The thing is that our fellow Saffa members seem to be overlooking the defensive efforts our guys put in, and rather focus on what they do on attack. Yet they seem to forget that the biggest improvement we've done between 2016 and 2017 is our defence and it's structures.

We are making it frustratingly difficult for opposition to score from first phase possession, and if we look at the French series and the 2 tests against Argentina, the tries the opposition scored was from our mistakes on attack:
  • Against France and Argentina, we've let a try be scored from a backline player either trying to put the grubber kick through or the chip over their heads and the ball popped just perfect for the opposing player to catch and get through.
  • Intercept tries
  • Missed tackles at Rhule's side.
I think guys like Franco Mostert, Jaco Kriel, Jan Serfontein and Jesse Kriel aren't getting the props they deserve for what they do on defence. While guys like Elton, Kolisi and Skosan gets praised for what they do on attack...
 
[Already discussed in appropriate thread..]
 
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Pollard and more importantly Cronje and Lleyds added to Bok squad. Whoop, whoop and WHOOP!! Suddenly feeling a lot more confident in our chances vs Aussie. Here's hoping Oosthuizen is fit as well. Its probably too much to ask that Cronje and Lleyds move straight into the starting side?
 
I think it is likely that Cronje will replace Hougaard with Hougaard going to the bench. I would like to see Lleyds replace Rhule.
 
I think it is likely that Cronje will replace Hougaard with Hougaard going to the bench. I would like to see Lleyds replace Rhule.

That is the most likely scenario. But I wouldn't be surprized if AC changes things up a little more than that. He might move Kriel to the wing in Rhule's place, have Serfontein move to 13 and bring in De Allende in at 12, with Leyds and Pollard on the bench along with Hougaard to cover basically every position in the backline.
 
To move Kriel to wing would be silly?With our 12 and 13 going as they are, can't think Allister would ever change.
 

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