[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 5: Ireland vs England (18/03/2017)

[munstermuffin]

I think the biggest problem with the NH has been consistency and finding ways to win. When the NH plays the SH there is the simple expectation that the SH will win. They know how to win games, even when playing badly. (SA's form being an exception here). This for me has been the big difference between England and the rest of the NH. We haven't played much better if at all except against Scotland, but we've won games. EJ has bought that mentality to side. However it is still lacking for the rest of the NH. None of the other teams are bad, their all very good with great moments, but they can't win consistently and have that self-belief that they will win regardless.

Down with this smart and correct logic

But you are right in a way. But equally NH teams are poor at planning. Luke you look at November tests, the SH teams really test guys against top teams. Here Ireland Wales Scotland only test fringe guys against a Fiji Canada etc. They'd only ever get on to a big game if there was injuries.
England rotate bit more but nothing great either. I think Australia are masters of planning 4 year cycles and developing a team.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I'd say the NH are on the whole just too conservative. Too conservative in how we play, in our selections, in expectations, nobody seems all that interested in pushing the boundaries, challenging the norm and being trailblazers. NZ have so often set the tone that others have followed. The more mobile and athletic front rows were from NZ and since copied, with the conservative NH still trying to go for big scrummaging lumps. The same across all NH forwards, we go for big brutes and don't expect them to be able to handle the ball at all, that just isn't acceptable in NZ.

Until the NH can ditch the conservative attitude of the "purists", we will forever lag behind. Much as purists may like to see a bunch of massive forwards smashing the living bejeesus out of each other, it will rarely beat the SH. This is why Wales have the worst record of any NH side against the SH (ignoring Italy), they took the big lump thing to the limit and built their entire gameplan around it. It worked against NH sides who played a similar plan but it did not work against the SH.

I'm quite happy watching England U20's because the playing style is much more like NZ and they are incredibly athletic. The high tempo passing game causes lots of errors but much better to learn that young than try to change to it when older (again see Wales).

 

[corny]

I find conservatism in selection the most irritating. Uncapped players are treated as pariahs and its generally accepted (mistakenly) that they'd be a liability in a tough international game. Mass delusion imo.

 

[corny]

Good to have Payne back in the 23. I didn't expect anything different apart from maybe Payne straight into 13. The changes needed aren't possible right now short of bringing Leavy in to the backrow or parachuting a back three player in with no squad experience. Definitely enough there to beat England if the performance is on the money.

I don't agree with this at all. Schmidt shouldn't accept losing to Wales & Scotland and how he shows he means business is by dropping lads who aren't getting the job done. Its tough because no doubt everyone is trying but its a professional set up and an absolute cut throat approach is needed. We're not getting that at all. The first half in Scotland was effectively tolerated by the management. O'Brien is getting by, Zebo is getting by, Best (despite always working hard) is getting by, McGrath is getting by....If they know the coach is hamstrung because he's not prepared to make changes they'll continue to just get by.

He has players chomping at the bit to get in and not being familiar with the set up isn't the reason they're not being picked. No one can tell me McFadden is more familiar than Gilroy or Conway with recent camp developments yet we all know if Earls doesn't make it he's leapfrogging both of them. He's sending all the wrong signals to the squad imo. Starting players are on easy street whether they consciously think about it or not and the squad players know they've no chance of getting a place.

Look at what Jones is up to with England. The complete opposite approach. All the ****e about 'finishers', the shot he fired across the bow of Joseph etc. If/when England lose he'll leave no one in any doubt who's to blame. Lads (not Hartley) will pay for any drop in performance with their place and thats the way it should be.

 

[stormmaster1]

Down with this smart and correct logic 

But you are right in a way. But equally NH teams are poor at planning. Luke you look at November tests, the SH teams really test guys against top teams. Here Ireland Wales Scotland only test fringe guys against a Fiji Canada etc. They'd only ever get on to a big game if there was injuries.
England rotate bit more but nothing great either. I think Australia are masters of planning 4 year cycles and developing a team.

Gotta agree with the principle of blooding players even in tough matches. If i think back to some of the best players of the past decade, they have often shown the ability to play at high levels from their first few caps (think Roberts, North, Halfpenny, Murray, Stander, Itoje, Kruis, Joseph).

To me if a player is good enough at the top club level then the risk of putting them in a proper test match is less than the risk of leaving a potentially great player on the sidelines.

 

[munstermuffin]

Gotta agree with the principle of blooding players even in tough matches. If i think back to some of the best players of the past decade, they have often shown the ability to play at high levels from their first few caps (think Roberts, North, Halfpenny, Murray, Stander, Itoje, Kruis, Joseph).

To me if a player is good enough at the top club level then the risk of putting them in a proper test match is less than the risk of leaving a potentially great player on the sidelines.

My views are those are games you really judge a guy. SH teams do it brilliantly. It's hard to judge against a Canada etc who, no disrepect to them, are out of their depth and it'd show after 40mins and game becomes whatbit is a low key friendly

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I don't agree with this at all. Schmidt shouldn't accept losing to Wales & Scotland and how he shows he means business is by dropping lads who aren't getting the job done. Its tough because no doubt everyone is trying but its a professional set up and an absolute cut throat approach is needed. We're not getting that at all. The first half in Scotland was effectively tolerated by the management. O'Brien is getting by, Zebo is getting by, Best (despite always working hard) is getting by, McGrath is getting by....If they know the coach is hamstrung because he's not prepared to make changes they'll continue to just get by.

He has players chomping at the bit to get in and not being familiar with the set up isn't the reason they're not being picked. No one can tell me McFadden is more familiar than Gilroy or Conway with recent camp developments yet we all know if Earls doesn't make it he's leapfrogging both of them. He's sending all the wrong signals to the squad imo. Starting players are on easy street whether they consciously think about it or not and the squad players know they've no chance of getting a place.

Look at what Jones is up to with England. The complete opposite approach. All the ****e about 'finishers', the shot he fired across the bow of Joseph etc. If/when England lose he'll leave no one in any doubt who's to blame. Lads (not Hartley) will pay for any drop in performance with their place and thats the way it should be.

Who do you bring in from the current squad? He buggered himself by not giving Sweetnam and Byrne squad places, are you really going to drop SOB for Leavy when the latter has never shown he's the better player? Is Healy doing enough all round to get past McGrath while the latter is doing well in the scrum, making his tackles and hitting rucks? Are you really going to dump your captain in the last game of an international window? If Mcfadden does skip straight into the squad thats not good whatsoever, its also pure speculation. By all means you should drop guys when they have deserving replacements, as I see it we don't right now, partly because Schmidt picked guys like Conway and Gilroy ahead of Byrne, ROL and Sweetnam (I never agreed with that, I think neither are near international class) and partly due to the two 7's who can replace SOB are on the sidelines.

The changes required need a bit more preparation than going from a provincial down week to a test match against England in 6 days considering it involves a change of captain, bringing in players who aren't available or good enough yet and bringing in players who haven't trained with the team. Schmidt, for right or wrong, won't cap players in the 6n, he was praised all around for waiting for Ringrose to develop, maligned for McCloskey treatment when his hands were tied and the phrase "the 6nations isn't the place to blood new players" was thrown about regularly.

@Muff, all well and good to claim debuts were only handed out against Canada but the reality is the 14 of the 19 new caps since the RWC have played against at least one of England, South Africa, New Zealand or Australia.

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Also Jones and Joseph is a weak comparison, he didn't replace him with a debutant or a guy who lacks experience.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

England Team
1. Marler
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Lawes
6. Itoje
7. Haskell
8. Binny
9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. Daly
12. Farrell
13. Joseph
14. Watson
15. Brown

16. George
17. Mako
18. Sinckler
19. Wood
20. Hughes
21. Care
22. Te'o
23. Nowell

Don't agree with Watson over Nowell. Other than that a good team.

 

[nh206]

It poses an interesting question of when is the right time to introduce new players to the international setup. The six nations is the obviously the NH bread and butter and as such failure here is unacceptable, this means that the incumbents with experience are generally preferred unless there is a significantly better option. The summer tours are a tough affair against typically very good opponents, again this is a challenging arena but can provide some good opportunity for new players to get squad time. But there aren't exactly any low priority matches here. Then you have the AIs, which are typically a chance to see how NH measures up against SH, again not exactly somewhere where a new player can come in with low expectations. Obviously there is usually a match in here against a slightly easier team, but what do you learn about a player in that match?

We did see quite a few new players in the Eng - Wal friendly last year but those matches are fairly rare. I do also agree, the top players seem come in and make the transition quickly. I don't think this is immediate though but about how they learn from each experience. If they are completely outplayed, there are very few learning opportunities. This is clearly easier when one or two players are brought in to an already successful team rather than replacing large sections of a struggling team (easier said than done).

 

[MarkyH]

Billys back in 8 !

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Watson too! Love the look of the team!

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Still anticipating a very tight, tough game but England fans can be happy about their selection.

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It poses an interesting question of when is the right time to introduce new players to the international setup. The six nations is the obviously the NH bread and butter and as such failure here is unacceptable, this means that the incumbents with experience are generally preferred unless there is a significantly better option. The summer tours are a tough affair against typically very good opponents, again this is a challenging arena but can provide some good opportunity for new players to get squad time. But there aren't exactly any low priority matches here. Then you have the AIs, which are typically a chance to see how NH measures up against SH, again not exactly somewhere where a new player can come in with low expectations. Obviously there is usually a match in here against a slightly easier team, but what do you learn about a player in that match?

We did see quite a few new players in the Eng - Wal friendly last year but those matches are fairly rare. I do also agree, the top players seem come in and make the transition quickly. I don't think this is immediate though but about how they learn from each experience. If they are completely outplayed, there are very few learning opportunities. This is clearly easier when one or two players are brought in to an already successful team rather than replacing large sections of a struggling team (easier said than done).

I think England are quite clever introducing new players. The EPS gives chance to new players to learn new surroundings, train with the first choice squad and learn moves and understand how it works. They also get a first hand look at what is required if they want to make the team.

Also, last 6N we gave debuts to Clifford and Itoje. Daly might of came of the bench too in the tournament. In the summer tour of Aus we have Hughes & Harrison trying to make a name in the squad. We are slowly bringing players in and giving them enough chance to show what they can do. Sometimes players don't excel (Harrison) and go back to their clubs. EJ won't write them off tho.

The Argentina tour isn't a trip to Canada, or USA its a tough tour against a proper test team. I'm sure EJ will be looking at the next crop of players that he see's making the following 6N in 2018, especially in our problem positions. At worst, he will be able to look at players that give us totally different options/skillsets that will challenge the current team.

 

[munstermuffin]

Who do you bring in from the current squad? He buggered himself by not giving Sweetnam and Byrne squad places, are you really going to drop SOB for Leavy when the latter has never shown he's the better player? Is Healy doing enough all round to get past McGrath while the latter is doing well in the scrum, making his tackles and hitting rucks? Are you really going to dump your captain in the last game of an international window? If Mcfadden does skip straight into the squad thats not good whatsoever, its also pure speculation. By all means you should drop guys when they have deserving replacements, as I see it we don't right now, partly because Schmidt picked guys like Conway and Gilroy ahead of Byrne, ROL and Sweetnam (I never agreed with that, I think neither are near international class) and partly due to the two 7's who can replace SOB are on the sidelines.

The changes required need a bit more preparation than going from a provincial down week to a test match against England in 6 days considering it involves a change of captain, bringing in players who aren't available or good enough yet and bringing in players who haven't trained with the team. Schmidt, for right or wrong, won't cap players in the 6n, he was praised all around for waiting for Ringrose to develop, maligned for McCloskey treatment when his hands were tied and the phrase "the 6nations isn't the place to blood new players" was thrown about regularly.

@Muff, all well and good to claim debuts were only handed out against Canada but the reality is the 14 of the 19 new caps since the RWC have played against at least one of England, South Africa, New Zealand or Australia.

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Also Jones and Joseph is a weak comparison, he didn't replace him with a debutant or a guy who lacks experience.

I nrver stated only against Canada but how many were just played against bigger teams due to injury etc. TOH is example. But more on the belief that guys should be trusted in big games. Like you say there Leavy has never shown he's better that SOB. And he probably isn't BUT he is in better form. We pick players off form who are ineffective. But even now its not even capping new guys its stubborness to not correct weaknesses when alternative options are there
Also I'm on record as saying if England beat us for reasons I said it identifies a weakness in Schmidt in that he never rectified issues that were clear weakness.
His use of bench has been embarrassing too. Like Best was awful vs Scotland and Wales yet Scannell was trusted for 1 minute in the combined 160mins. And still managed to overturn scrum.
I'm not buying all this camp. Hope I'm proven wrong but as I said if it's a loss due to areas identified then serious questions will deservedly be asked

 

[nh206]

The Argentina tour isn't a trip to Canada, or USA its a tough tour against a proper test team. I'm sure EJ will be looking at the next crop of players that he see's making the following 6N in 2018, especially in our problem positions. At worst, he will be able to look at players that give us totally different options/skillsets that will challenge the current team.

I think the Argentina tour this year is a great opportunity too. With a good number of the starters likely to be touring it gives a chance to some of the newer players. Agreed that it's not an easy tour, but I like the idea of bringing a good number of players through into a successful team with a winning mentality and relatively little expectation (all the top players are at the Lions). That said, win this weekend and no players want to come in and be responsible for breaking the winning streak!

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I know less than you guys about Ireland obviously but I'd have said it's less about balance than the fact that Sean O'Brien isn't really justifying his place, leaving the breakdown for example feeling underpowered . It would be better for you arguably if CJ Stander was the one out of form. O'Mahony would be a good replacement there surely and also, though I don't know where he currently is in the pecking order, Tommy O'Donnell for example and I'm sure others are ahead of him. Rated him for wolfhounds though. However it's irrelevant because blindside power isn't the issue. Ireland for me have in the last 10 years been better than many sides at the breakdown because of collective effort, rather than because of any one individual player. Except now guys like Best are waning, Paul O'Connell is gone, Heaslip has had a few meh games, and Sean O'Brien isn't lighting anything up so all of a sudden the balance just feels wrong. I'm used to very dynamic Irish packs and currently this seems sacrificed in favour of compartmented "roles".

So I know Jordi Murphy is long-term injured which is arguably a big problem right now but what about Josh Van de Flier?

 

[McTallshort]

Watson yes but instead of Brown not Nowell

 

[nh206]

Watson yes but instead of Brown not Nowell

Agreed. But I don't think anyone would have anticipated Brown dropping to the bench before an aerial onslaught. I would suspect that Nowell will come on for Brown if all is going well and Watson will drop to fullback. Well I'm hoping anyway.

 

[Which Tyler]

Watson yes but instead of Brown not Nowell

Agreed, but...
There may well have been an injury concern; we all assumed May was there in case Daly failed the RtP protocols; but he could just have easily been covering some knee pain for Nowell.
Equally, I'm not fond of the balance of Daly and Nowell on the 2 wings. They both offer essentially the same; a work-rate player who likes to roam off his wing, popping up in all sorts of places - which is fine; but on the other wing I'd rather offer something a little different.

Having said all of that, I'd still have preferred Daly, Watons and Nowell all on the pitch at the same time.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I know less than you guys about Ireland obviously but I'd have said it's less about balance than the fact that Sean O'Brien isn't really justifying his place, leaving the breakdown for example feeling underpowered . It would be better for you arguably if CJ Stander was the one out of form. O'Mahony would be a good replacement there surely and also, though I don't know where he currently is in the pecking order, Tommy O'Donnell for example and I'm sure others are ahead of him. Rated him for wolfhounds though. However it's irrelevant because blindside power isn't the issue. Ireland for me have in the last 10 years been better than many sides at the breakdown because of collective effort, rather than because of any one individual player. Except now guys like Best are waning, Paul O'Connell is gone, Heaslip has had a few meh games, and Sean O'Brien isn't lighting anything up so all of a sudden the balance just feels wrong. I'm used to very dynamic Irish packs and currently this seems sacrificed in favour of compartmented "roles".

So I know Jordi Murphy is long-term injured which is arguably a big problem right now but what about Josh Van de Flier?

VdF is out too, if either were available and SOB was getting picked I would be annoyed, as is CJ and Heaslip are playing well and we have SOB or the guy who is 4th choice 7 in a full strength Leinster squad, it shows we need to spread our talent in the provinces a wee bit but nothing more!

Agreed. But I don't think anyone would have anticipated Brown dropping to the bench before an aerial onslaught. I would suspect that Nowell will come on for Brown if all is going well and Watson will drop to fullback. Well I'm hoping anyway.

Do you expect an aerial onslaught, I know Jones said there would be but it was just a throw away comment. Ireland have kicked 96 times compared to England's 94 this tournament with less garryowens in the games Sexto has played.

 

[Raggs]

Considering the number of carriers Ireland have, I'm surprised most of all by their ineffectiveness. All 3 backrow and 2 props all good at carrying, there should be more space than they seemed to find.

 

[nh206]

Do you expect an aerial onslaught, I know Jones said there would be but it was just a throw away comment. Ireland have kicked 96 times compared to England's 94 this tournament with less garryowens in the games Sexto has played.

I would, although that is an interesting stat. That wouldn't have been my feeling from watching the games. I'm not saying that it's the only way the game might turn out, but it's not going to be a surprise if there are a few testers put up in the first 10 minutes.

 

[munstermuffin]

Where England may hurt us is out wide. They know Farrell Sr structures. Also we are defensively defending very narrow and they have gas out wide. Daly has really impressed.